Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMBut what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Good GMs

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMOn the GM advice, it seems to me there are barrels of it from The Master of the Game to Robin Laws to How To Be A GURPS GM.  Whether it's all good advice is debatable.  But what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

General life experience.  They should start learning it in kindergarten, then gradually get better at it over the next few years, because it gets harder and harder to learn it the older they get.  If they haven't learned it by age 35, they probably never will.

Admittedly good social skills might be asking too much but it'd be nice if they were at least housebroken.

The hobby? Not sure. What I need is some good sandboxes with a "villain" like Curse of Strahd and Tomb Annihilation, but better and a bit leaner, or a bigger version Night's Dark Terror / Qelong, or Carcosa with a bit more meat.

I created my own sandbox but I'd probably buy if someone did the work for me.

Some people mentioned "culling", but what need here is good reviews and good reviewers. I write some, but they don't seem to attract as much attention as my other posts.

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AMAs a broad category, tools for GMs.  Anything that makes it smoother for a GM to run a game or lowers the barrier to becoming a GM.

I think a book dedicated to helping new GMs learn to make and organize notes would be fantastic. 

A lot of newer modules for games are very poorly written and require the GM to do a lot of prep to actually use them at the table.  A little more effort on the part of adventure writers to put stat block right on the page where they are needed, give a brief summary on the first pages as to the shape and expected flow of the adventure, and more care in providing maps for the GM to use.  Some guidance for adjusting the difficulty of the adventure would be nice too.

Every system needs cheat sheets.  One cheat sheet is a bullet point list of steps to create a PC.  Another is a sheet that is a list of combat rules, modifiers, and conditions.  No deep explanations, just a couple of sheets of paper for the table.

11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

Cheat sheets are a great idea.

Hex Paper,
https://incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/

A great site that I use to make all kinds of paper.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 14, 2024, 08:17:30 PMNone. I have plenty to use until doomsday.

Now, if you mean WANT (which I believe you do) - nothing right now. Ask me again in 6 months.

Oh, I forgot - some kickass Star Wars supplements that ignore Disney Star Wars. I'm thinking something massive that delves into the Star Wars killed off by Disney.

The problem with Star Wars is you cant use things because Disney holds the rights.  Otherwise you can only give it away (right?, dunno).  Unless you go off canon into the old books ??

There is a small addon to ICRPG for Star Wars, but its really pretty barebones and needs a lot more work.  Its given away for free as a fan add on.  You could get it and add more stuff.

I've often said we need more cheap points of entry that aren't cripple ware.  GURPS Lite comes close or would if they'd do a few official lite supplements to let people do popular genres.

But I think D&D needs a starter with miniatures, like a hundred miniatures and cardboard terrain.  I'm not much for cutting the number of miniatures to get plastic terrain but doors are often handy, especially ones that open and close.

Now for GURPS and for Kromm's sake, yes I know it's a pipe dream.  I want build your own character action figures in 1/18 scale.  I'd like them to be at least as posable as the old 3.5" GI Joes.  But I'd probably do hands that come off and have the weapons cast on for more realistic / better positioning.  I don't think it'd take all that many sprues to make it work.  It's one of my pet daydreams.  Figures that can represent kneeling and crouching and weapon change ups.  Naturally you'd need a bit of a different system for mapping out combats.

Most new games are not ready for prime time at launch.

I'm very much in the: "Refinements of existing games (better presentation/organization, retroclones, new editions, rules tweaks, etc)" Camp.

My current poster-child for this is the Witcher RPG.

There is nothing wrong with the underlying resolution mechanic, so we should have gotten a good game.

But we didn't.

Don't throw a coin to the Witcher RPG, because it's hot trash...

For those interested in a longer rant given in the past:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-witcher-rpg-save-your-money/

The hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 14, 2024, 07:48:59 PMA version of BRP that is compatible with CoC material while being less absurdly clunky.

Rgr that. CoC and Traveller are my 2 favorite 'non-class based' systems. If you spliced Traveller life path character creation into CoC I think it would be nearly perfect. So with that, If they cleaned up BRP where you could have a proper fantasy game that was as clean as CoC it would get my money.

Quote from: Festus on June 14, 2024, 08:09:52 PMTo me roleplaying games are art, not auto parts. It's like asking whether I need a new sub-genre of heavy metal more than a new album from my favorite country singer. I don't know. Is it good? Is it cool? The HU or Robert Earl Keen, hell why not both?

...

Rgr on art. Now I would say there is a lot of "art" that IS NOT (cross in a bottle of urine etc), & there are some game systems that fall into that arena to me. Now I would not say 'thou shall not make' but I will say if you do make, or buy/support them,  I will not support you and will not respect you either.

Now to the important part of your statement R E K !!!! Now that is a county name that I do not often hear but deserves a lot of love !

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AM....

I think a book dedicated to helping new GMs learn to make and organize notes would be fantastic. 

A lot of newer modules for games are very poorly written and require the GM to do a lot of prep to actually use them at the table.  A little more effort on the part of adventure writers to put stat block right on the page where they are needed, give a brief summary on the first pages as to the shape and expected flow of the adventure, and more care in providing maps for the GM to use.  Some guidance for adjusting the difficulty of the adventure would be nice too.

Every system needs cheat sheets.  One cheat sheet is a bullet point list of steps to create a PC.  Another is a sheet that is a list of combat rules, modifiers, and conditions.  No deep explanations, just a couple of sheets of paper for the table.

....

Both of my daughters started gaming with me a few years ago, but my younger daughter has actually tried her hand at 1 offs a few times. I helped her prep (and she had seen me DM for a few years) so she had a good foundation, but yeah for gamers that don't have that, a good 'how to GM would be great. Of course there are a lot of youtube etc now that didn't exist back in the 80s when I started tossing dice, so there is that.

I agree on the bullet point cheat sheet. However, I will say that over the years, I have learned that the easiest way for me to learn and be able to run a new game system is to go through the rules and make my own cheat sheets (and notes for the GM screen). I read through the rules, run myself through character creation / combat / skills (taking notes on issues questions I have). Clean all of it up and make my players 'how to' notes. By the time I have that done, I have a fair handle on the system.

Quote from: Chainsaw on June 15, 2024, 07:53:02 PMMore cowbell

🤣😂😂🤣 Rgr that !

Quote from: BadApple on June 16, 2024, 05:18:35 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMBut what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Good GMs

AND

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 16, 2024, 06:57:43 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMOn the GM advice, it seems to me there are barrels of it from The Master of the Game to Robin Laws to How To Be A GURPS GM.  Whether it's all good advice is debatable.  But what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

General life experience.  They should start learning it in kindergarten, then gradually get better at it over the next few years, because it gets harder and harder to learn it the older they get.  If they haven't learned it by age 35, they probably never will.

RGR THAT to both.

Like I said, both of my daughters (along with their best church/school friend and her dad) started gaming with me a good 3-4 years ago. So I know the quality of the GMing that have seen.

Now, for my daughters, they are both slivers of my personality. What is dangerous is that being slivers of my personality, they are not balanced. My older is the bookish intellectual thoughtful (and introverted) portion of my personality. My younger is the 'yeah volunteering for jump duty and playing with explosives in the military' sounds like a great life choice, and be ready to argue your point AT ALL TIMES to EVERYONE part of my personality. But gaming has helped them modify their personality so the older is learning to be more interactive with people, and younger be more thoughtful.

So yeah learning real life skills learned early helps (now how to you book and market that ??)

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 17, 2024, 08:40:02 AMThe hobby? Not sure. What I need is some good sandboxes with a "villain" like Curse of Strahd and Tomb Annihilation, but better and a bit leaner, or a bigger version Night's Dark Terror / Qelong, or Carcosa with a bit more meat.

I created my own sandbox but I'd probably buy if someone did the work for me.

Some people mentioned "culling", but what need here is good reviews and good reviewers. I write some, but they don't seem to attract as much attention as my other posts.

Rgr on sandbox. Even if I don't use it btb I love to idea mine them ! Rgr on Night Dark Terror Qelong Carcosa. Despite CoC & DG being one of my go to games, I do not prefer Lovecraft's level of horror (I'm more Poe). But, I LOVE King in Yellow / Carcosa !

100% agree with the need for good reviews and reviewers !

Quote from: orbitalair on June 17, 2024, 11:40:24 AM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 14, 2024, 08:17:30 PMNone. I have plenty to use until doomsday.

Now, if you mean WANT (which I believe you do) - nothing right now. Ask me again in 6 months.

Oh, I forgot - some kickass Star Wars supplements that ignore Disney Star Wars. I'm thinking something massive that delves into the Star Wars killed off by Disney.

The problem with Star Wars is you cant use things because Disney holds the rights.  Otherwise you can only give it away (right?, dunno).  Unless you go off canon into the old books ??

There is a small addon to ICRPG for Star Wars, but its really pretty barebones and needs a lot more work.  Its given away for free as a fan add on.  You could get it and add more stuff.

Thank you, kind sir. I'll get right to that.

Quote from: BadApple on June 16, 2024, 05:18:35 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMBut what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Good GMs

A thousand times THIS.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 18, 2024, 10:02:55 AM<trim>

Thank you, kind sir. I'll get right to that.

A one shot from the ICRPG Community page.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-thPH-Aq1LyEG6zM9i-VM6yXQhVfQHvFz1A8K9yyNGs/edit

The short setting that I mentioned.
https://icrpgcommunitycontent.com/product/star-wars-v2-icrpg-hack/

I would be glad to help if you really wanted to flesh this out more.  I see the system needing some things, to just pull it all together and spice it up with some nice artwork.

There are a lot of characters to map out, ships too.  Then theres the timeline, one really needs to know the SW timeline to set a scenario in.  Probably spice up the space combat, its not star wars if we cant blast tie fighters off our tail.

I am working on a Gamma World 1e/2e port right now.

Quote from: Jaeger on June 17, 2024, 07:53:00 PMMost new games are not ready for prime time at launch.

I'm very much in the: "Refinements of existing games (better presentation/organization, retroclones, new editions, rules tweaks, etc)" Camp.

My current poster-child for this is the Witcher RPG.

There is nothing wrong with the underlying resolution mechanic, so we should have gotten a good game.

But we didn't.

Don't throw a coin to the Witcher RPG, because it's hot trash...

For those interested in a longer rant given in the past:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-witcher-rpg-save-your-money/

The hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

I agree, just wanted to add a caveat for small publishers.

For me, it is a lot easier to sell 100 copies of a new book than to get 5 people to give it a read for free, let alone play-test.

So I test most stuff with my group, and unfortunately I sometimes still find errors due to insufficient play-testing AFTER I have published.

I agree that some errors from the big players are nearly inexcusable, but I find that true of any system TBH. Still trying to find (or write) the perfect one...

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 18, 2024, 01:01:29 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 17, 2024, 07:53:00 PMThe hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

I agree, just wanted to add a caveat for small publishers.

For me, it is a lot easier to sell 100 copies of a new book than to get 5 people to give it a read for free, let alone play-test.

So I test most stuff with my group, and unfortunately I sometimes still find errors due to insufficient play-testing AFTER I have published.

I agree that some errors from the big players are nearly inexcusable, but I find that true of any system TBH. Still trying to find (or write) the perfect one...

I sympathize, but I also think this shows a problem. It sounds like most people aren't buying those books with intent to actually play them. People noted in the recent thread on the _Shadowdark_ RPG that a year later, there is much less buzz about people actually playing it. Some people are playing it, but they're probably only a very small fraction of the 13,249 who backed the Kickstarter.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I don't think this is a problem with Eric's Chaos Factory or Kelsey's Shadowdark. I think it is an industry-wide problem. As far as I know, their books might see more actual play than most.


Still, people who buy books just to put on the shelf is a major factor in the economics of publishing.

Per the original topic, I think what the hobby needs is to focus more on what people will and do use in actual play. There are a lot of neat ideas that people will buy and put on the shelf, but what's important for the long-term of the hobby is what really gets used at the table.

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 02:28:12 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 18, 2024, 01:01:29 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 17, 2024, 07:53:00 PMThe hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

I agree, just wanted to add a caveat for small publishers.

For me, it is a lot easier to sell 100 copies of a new book than to get 5 people to give it a read for free, let alone play-test.

So I test most stuff with my group, and unfortunately I sometimes still find errors due to insufficient play-testing AFTER I have published.

I agree that some errors from the big players are nearly inexcusable, but I find that true of any system TBH. Still trying to find (or write) the perfect one...

I sympathize, but I also think this shows a problem. It sounds like most people aren't buying those books with intent to actually play them. People noted in the recent thread on the _Shadowdark_ RPG that a year later, there is much less buzz about people actually playing it. Some people are playing it, but they're probably only a very small fraction of the 13,249 who backed the Kickstarter.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I don't think this is a problem with Eric's Chaos Factory or Kelsey's Shadowdark. I think it is an industry-wide problem. As far as I know, their books might see more actual play than most.

Still, people who buy books just to put on the shelf is a major factor in the economics of publishing.

Per the original topic, I think what the hobby needs is to focus more on what people will and do use in actual play. There are a lot of neat ideas that people will buy and put on the shelf, but what's important for the long-term of the hobby is what really gets used at the table.

Fair enough.

I'm partly to blame since I do buy books just to read sometimes, but I prefer the ones I can actually use 1000x more.

I think these books - especially modules, etc. - should be designed and optimized for use at the table, and I do my best to assure my books follow that ideal (not only because I actually use them at the table but because that is what I wish for any reader).