TheRPGSite

A question I've been pondering in light of recent threads about new game Kickstarters and their long term impact.

A poll is obviously a very imperfect way of asking this question, but I'm quite interested in what people's answers would be. I'm aware that there's a lot of grey space between these categories, and I'm aware that a lot of people's answer would be all of the above. I gave a maximum of three votes, so people can express multiple things having high value, but I'd be curious how people would rank these categories as well.

What I'm trying to get at is this: What kind of new RPG products do you think provide the most value, either for your personal library or to the RPG hobby at large?

A version of BRP that is compatible with CoC material while being less absurdly clunky.

I personally really like universal toolkit systems. But, you have to provide supplemental material that shows the application and versatility of the system to keep it from withering on the vine.

=======
TL;DR for the rest: There is some good new stuff out there, but it's buried under a mountain of crap.
=======

However, to address the actual question: I don't think the hobby needs anything new right now. Moreover, I'm not seeing a whole lot of truly "new" stuff (there is some, but not a lot) anyway.

Mostly what I'm seeing is derivative house rules of an already well established system. We don't need another d20 system but with some quirky difference, or another percentile system that is 99% BRP but has a slight modification on how magic works.

I think what the hobby needs is a culling of all the inferior crap to separate the wheat from the chaff.

These days anybody can sell a pdf and/or pod on drivethru. That's good because there is some really high quality stuff being produced. It's bad because it gets buried under a mountain of unoriginal, low quality lookalikes.

To me roleplaying games are art, not auto parts. It's like asking whether I need a new sub-genre of heavy metal more than a new album from my favorite country singer. I don't know. Is it good? Is it cool? The HU or Robert Earl Keen, hell why not both?

"Need" and "value" really aren't part of the equation. It's about what fires my imagination or brings me joy. I won't know it until I see it, but when I do I'll buy it regardless of which of those categories it fits best.

If the question is what do I think would sell the most copies in today's market, I'd have to say the last three options referring to existing games, specifically where that existing game is some variant of 5e.

None. I have plenty to use until doomsday.

Now, if you mean WANT (which I believe you do) - nothing right now. Ask me again in 6 months. ;)

Oh, I forgot - some kickass Star Wars supplements that ignore Disney Star Wars. I'm thinking something massive that delves into the Star Wars killed off by Disney.

Quote from: Nakana on June 14, 2024, 08:07:51 PMI don't think the hobby needs anything new right now. Moreover, I'm not seeing a whole lot of truly "new" stuff (there is some, but not a lot) anyway... I think what the hobby needs is a culling of all the inferior crap to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Quote from: Festus on June 14, 2024, 08:09:52 PMTo me roleplaying games are art, not auto parts....It's about what fires my imagination or brings me joy.

Both of these comments are almost word-for-word options I considered putting into the list, but didn't. Guess I should have :P

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 14, 2024, 08:32:04 PMBoth of these comments are almost word-for-word options I considered putting into the list, but didn't. Guess I should have :P

😆

Quote from: Nakana on June 14, 2024, 08:07:51 PMI think what the hobby needs is a culling of all the inferior crap to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Oof. I *really* don't like the sound of that. Who does the culling? Do we really want Roll20, who own DriveThru, to decide what constitutes the chaff? What if Hasbro starts buying up small publishers and deciding which of their products to keep, which to bury, and which to "rehabilitate"? Do we want Kickstarter to decide what RPG products are "crap" before they're even fully written?

If RPGs are art, then what is chaff is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Furthermore, what many might consider chaff now may be thought of as brilliant or ahead of its time or classic in 10 or 20 years. Even with bad art, just the act of making it has value to the artist themselves. How else does one learn one's craft?

For me to be able to make or play any game I want, everyone else must have the right to make or play any game they want, even if - no, *especially* if - I think their games suck.

Culling would be the death knell of the hobby and the corruption of its soul.

Quote from: Festus on June 14, 2024, 09:39:08 PM

Quote from: Nakana on June 14, 2024, 08:07:51 PMI think what the hobby needs is a culling of all the inferior crap to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Oof. I *really* don't like the sound of that. Who does the culling? Do we really want Roll20, who own DriveThru, to decide what constitutes the chaff? What if Hasbro starts buying up small publishers and deciding which of their products to keep, which to bury, and which to "rehabilitate"? Do we want Kickstarter to decide what RPG products are "crap" before they're even fully written?

If RPGs are art, then what is chaff is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Furthermore, what many might consider chaff now may be thought of as brilliant or ahead of its time or classic in 10 or 20 years. Even with bad art, just the act of making it has value to the artist themselves. How else does one learn one's craft?

For me to be able to make or play any game I want, everyone else must have the right to make or play any game they want, even if - no, *especially* if - I think their games suck.

Culling would be the death knell of the hobby and the corruption of its soul.

Greetings!

Yep, right on, my friend! I agree. Who cares if lots of stuff produced is crap? Just wade through it, and buy what you like. More variety, more opportunity, more access, for everyone. I think it is great!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The "culling" is more a hypothetical wish in a perfect world; not a proposal for an actual solution. I'm just saying: there's a lot of shit... and I get that it's all subjective.

The problem is, I'm simply not going to wade through it. I'll settle on what I already have and that's that. Which means, I'm not supporting the hobby very much financially. I may not matter, but how many others are doing the same?

I'm also separating "the hobby" from WoTC. You can play D&D forever, you're supporting Hasbro, not the hobby.

I know it seems like more is better, but I think the overwhelming fragmentation will prove detrimental. Not enough support for indie creators (good or bad) and they'll tank only leaving the bigger companies.

Better way to say it: the shitty indies will cannibalize  the good indies and they'll all die.

Hobby doesn't need any particular product, and never has.  Now, anything that makes it easier for the people doing the real work to get that to those interested in it, that's helpful.  Not that it's all that hard right now, but there is a lot of noise blocking useful signal.  It's not so much bad products as a poisoned ecosystem. 

A lot less idiots would be nice, but that's right up there high on the list of wishes that the genie can't grant.

We already have 5E, and now we are about to see new improved 5E!!! What more could we possibly need?

Hardy, har, har!!!


I was in a B-A-M last weekend, and I didn't buy a book.  I looked at what they had in the RPG section; but I didn't spend money on what i saw.  I actually had interest, but nothing tripped my trigger.  It was all 5E, and PF 2E.

So sad....

Some kind of roll-up electronic play map/mat so that I can take the best parts of a VTT and put it on a real table-top.

A VR VTT indistinguishable from being there

As sad as it may sound, I think the opposite, something aimed at solo gaming

As a broad category, tools for GMs.  Anything that makes it smoother for a GM to run a game or lowers the barrier to becoming a GM.

I think a book dedicated to helping new GMs learn to make and organize notes would be fantastic. 

A lot of newer modules for games are very poorly written and require the GM to do a lot of prep to actually use them at the table.  A little more effort on the part of adventure writers to put stat block right on the page where they are needed, give a brief summary on the first pages as to the shape and expected flow of the adventure, and more care in providing maps for the GM to use.  Some guidance for adjusting the difficulty of the adventure would be nice too.

Every system needs cheat sheets.  One cheat sheet is a bullet point list of steps to create a PC.  Another is a sheet that is a list of combat rules, modifiers, and conditions.  No deep explanations, just a couple of sheets of paper for the table.

11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

Quote from: Nakana on June 14, 2024, 08:07:51 PMI think what the hobby needs is a culling of all the inferior crap to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I agree with this, but believe that it is a problem with deliberately providing misinformation about game products.

We are, for the most part, an older and more experienced crowd who knows what products they like and will acquire (even pay for). Yet there is a huge number of hobbyists who can't tell the wheat from the chaff. If you go on Reddit and ask for a good SFRPG, you get a huge response of people recommending a one page game called "Lasers and Feelings" which is more basic than chess and can't even be rationally considered a RPG.

In the face of this kind of ridiculous information, how can an inexperienced hobbyist know where to turn? The Internet allows anyone to give their opinion, but how does the neophyte determine whose opinion is valid and whose opinion is full of shit?

Quote from: JeremyR on June 15, 2024, 03:03:01 AMAs sad as it may sound, I think the opposite, something aimed at solo gaming

A module expansion for existing RPGs to be ran either solo or one-on-one would be a good sell. The problem is that the current market for solo gaming is being supplied by people creating entire RPGs specifically for solo gaming and not module expansions.

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 15, 2024, 05:31:42 AM

Quote from: Nakana on June 14, 2024, 08:07:51 PMI think what the hobby needs is a culling of all the inferior crap to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I agree with this, but believe that it is a problem with deliberately providing misinformation about game products.

We are, for the most part, an older and more experienced crowd who knows what products they like and will acquire (even pay for). Yet there is a huge number of hobbyists who can't tell the wheat from the chaff. If you go on Reddit and ask for a good SFRPG, you get a huge response of people recommending a one page game called "Lasers and Feelings" which is more basic than chess and can't even be rationally considered a RPG.

In the face of this kind of ridiculous information, how can an inexperienced hobbyist know where to turn? The Internet allows anyone to give their opinion, but how does the neophyte determine whose opinion is valid and whose opinion is full of shit?

I think that question is relatively easy to answer. I don't give a shit about what has earned an Ennie or what is a Platinum seller on Drive Thru; I don't reject those products out of hand because of that. But if for instance a poster here or ENworld who holds opinions and thoughts I respect (regardless of it I agree with them or not) I would look into games or systems if they were to review/recommend them. Every time a game system or supplement is mentioned in a thread by someone whose opinion I trust, I check it out if it is interesting.

But really I wish there was almost a second tier of people who post their thoughts on specific products in a semi-formal manner.

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AMAs a broad category, tools for GMs.  Anything that makes it smoother for a GM to run a game or lowers the barrier to becoming a GM.

I think a book dedicated to helping new GMs learn to make and organize notes would be fantastic.

That's a category I completely missed, but you're right. I've bemoaned it else where, but the paucity of practical DM advice around the RPG world is a serious problem. Almost all of what you see in books, videos and blog-posts is either abstract conceptualizing --probably useless to someone seeking advice on running the game-- or Creative Writing 101 level formulaic storycraft, which is probably going to make someone's game worse rather than better.

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AM11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

You might hit up Black Blade Publishing (https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/ (https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/)).

They had 11x17 hex and 17x22 hex when I ordered from them a while back.

I don't think I am really interested in any of the proposed answers.

What we need is good, solid, systems with clearly defined goals that are open to developers.

Yes we have the OGL and Cephus and several others right now.

We need a new retail model that give independant game companies access to wider market awareness.  In store POD.  We need the bigger guys to support in-store POD sales.  Yes a system for that is a product it's just one aimed at retailers.

We need a really solid grassroots movement to bury the existing industry hedgemony.

The RPG industry needs innovation. New ideas. Not derivative ideas.

Story gaming hasn't really been anything that is totally new. But one take on existing ideas that have been poorly executed. For something that was supposed to be the future of RPG gaming, it has certainly fell flat on its face,

More cowbell

Personally, if Dungeon Alchemist would just release a Sci-Fi expansion I would pretty much set for life in terms of RPG needs.

1. A reborn Unisystem
2. A MEGS retroclone
 

2. MEGS Retro-Clone.

I would suggest that the biggest need the RPG industry has is to branch out into the Collaborative Strategy department. The big failing of most of the bigger RPGs is that players are practically always doing their own things when it comes to their character arcs and character advancement decisions, which means the GM's job can become an exercise in herding cats.

It's generally my conclusion that RPGs simply aren't difficult enough on the player-end for players to bother talking to each other that much. If you have classic monsters vulnerable to a certain thing you learn about from reading the Bestiary (or making a knowledge check) then either a player knows it, a player character knows it, or it's irrelevant. In all circumstances, the conversation takes two seconds. By extension, the usual way RPGs increase difficulty is to make monsters roll with bigger modifiers and roll bigger damage dice. There is literally nothing to discuss here; you aren't actually increasing the difficulty so much as increasing the peril.

However, if you actually give the players a puzzle to solve together, they actually have to sit down and talk for a moment. Once you do that, players are more likely to talk to each other about other things, like their character arcs and their character advancement decisions.

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 15, 2024, 05:50:30 AM

Quote from: JeremyR on June 15, 2024, 03:03:01 AMAs sad as it may sound, I think the opposite, something aimed at solo gaming

A module expansion for existing RPGs to be ran either solo or one-on-one would be a good sell. The problem is that the current market for solo gaming is being supplied by people creating entire RPGs specifically for solo gaming and not module expansions.

I was going to respond to the first comment, but the second comment is a good continuance of the first one. 

Solo gaming may indeed be a good alternative; for those who either have odd work schedules, or else do not live amongst a gaming friendly populace.  I fall into both of those camps, myself. 

I make my own way, but I also enjoy watching or reading about how others are getting it done.  Solo gaming allows for the exact gaming experience, you really want.

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AM11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

I've always thought mapping stickers would be a good idea.

On the GM advice, it seems to me there are barrels of it from The Master of the Game to Robin Laws to How To Be A GURPS GM.  Whether it's all good advice is debatable.  But what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMBut what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Good GMs

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMOn the GM advice, it seems to me there are barrels of it from The Master of the Game to Robin Laws to How To Be A GURPS GM.  Whether it's all good advice is debatable.  But what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

General life experience.  They should start learning it in kindergarten, then gradually get better at it over the next few years, because it gets harder and harder to learn it the older they get.  If they haven't learned it by age 35, they probably never will.

Admittedly good social skills might be asking too much but it'd be nice if they were at least housebroken.

The hobby? Not sure. What I need is some good sandboxes with a "villain" like Curse of Strahd and Tomb Annihilation, but better and a bit leaner, or a bigger version Night's Dark Terror / Qelong, or Carcosa with a bit more meat.

I created my own sandbox but I'd probably buy if someone did the work for me.

Some people mentioned "culling", but what need here is good reviews and good reviewers. I write some, but they don't seem to attract as much attention as my other posts.

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AMAs a broad category, tools for GMs.  Anything that makes it smoother for a GM to run a game or lowers the barrier to becoming a GM.

I think a book dedicated to helping new GMs learn to make and organize notes would be fantastic. 

A lot of newer modules for games are very poorly written and require the GM to do a lot of prep to actually use them at the table.  A little more effort on the part of adventure writers to put stat block right on the page where they are needed, give a brief summary on the first pages as to the shape and expected flow of the adventure, and more care in providing maps for the GM to use.  Some guidance for adjusting the difficulty of the adventure would be nice too.

Every system needs cheat sheets.  One cheat sheet is a bullet point list of steps to create a PC.  Another is a sheet that is a list of combat rules, modifiers, and conditions.  No deep explanations, just a couple of sheets of paper for the table.

11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

Cheat sheets are a great idea.

Hex Paper,
https://incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/

A great site that I use to make all kinds of paper.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 14, 2024, 08:17:30 PMNone. I have plenty to use until doomsday.

Now, if you mean WANT (which I believe you do) - nothing right now. Ask me again in 6 months. ;)

Oh, I forgot - some kickass Star Wars supplements that ignore Disney Star Wars. I'm thinking something massive that delves into the Star Wars killed off by Disney.

The problem with Star Wars is you cant use things because Disney holds the rights.  Otherwise you can only give it away (right?, dunno).  Unless you go off canon into the old books ??

There is a small addon to ICRPG for Star Wars, but its really pretty barebones and needs a lot more work.  Its given away for free as a fan add on.  You could get it and add more stuff.

I've often said we need more cheap points of entry that aren't cripple ware.  GURPS Lite comes close or would if they'd do a few official lite supplements to let people do popular genres.

But I think D&D needs a starter with miniatures, like a hundred miniatures and cardboard terrain.  I'm not much for cutting the number of miniatures to get plastic terrain but doors are often handy, especially ones that open and close.

Now for GURPS and for Kromm's sake, yes I know it's a pipe dream.  I want build your own character action figures in 1/18 scale.  I'd like them to be at least as posable as the old 3.5" GI Joes.  But I'd probably do hands that come off and have the weapons cast on for more realistic / better positioning.  I don't think it'd take all that many sprues to make it work.  It's one of my pet daydreams.  Figures that can represent kneeling and crouching and weapon change ups.  Naturally you'd need a bit of a different system for mapping out combats.

Most new games are not ready for prime time at launch.

I'm very much in the: "Refinements of existing games (better presentation/organization, retroclones, new editions, rules tweaks, etc)" Camp.

My current poster-child for this is the Witcher RPG.

There is nothing wrong with the underlying resolution mechanic, so we should have gotten a good game.

But we didn't.

Don't throw a coin to the Witcher RPG, because it's hot trash...

For those interested in a longer rant given in the past:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-witcher-rpg-save-your-money/

The hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 14, 2024, 07:48:59 PMA version of BRP that is compatible with CoC material while being less absurdly clunky.

Rgr that. CoC and Traveller are my 2 favorite 'non-class based' systems. If you spliced Traveller life path character creation into CoC I think it would be nearly perfect. So with that, If they cleaned up BRP where you could have a proper fantasy game that was as clean as CoC it would get my money.

Quote from: Festus on June 14, 2024, 08:09:52 PMTo me roleplaying games are art, not auto parts. It's like asking whether I need a new sub-genre of heavy metal more than a new album from my favorite country singer. I don't know. Is it good? Is it cool? The HU or Robert Earl Keen, hell why not both?

...

Rgr on art. Now I would say there is a lot of "art" that IS NOT (cross in a bottle of urine etc), & there are some game systems that fall into that arena to me. Now I would not say 'thou shall not make' but I will say if you do make, or buy/support them,  I will not support you and will not respect you either.

Now to the important part of your statement R E K !!!! Now that is a county name that I do not often hear but deserves a lot of love !

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AM....

I think a book dedicated to helping new GMs learn to make and organize notes would be fantastic. 

A lot of newer modules for games are very poorly written and require the GM to do a lot of prep to actually use them at the table.  A little more effort on the part of adventure writers to put stat block right on the page where they are needed, give a brief summary on the first pages as to the shape and expected flow of the adventure, and more care in providing maps for the GM to use.  Some guidance for adjusting the difficulty of the adventure would be nice too.

Every system needs cheat sheets.  One cheat sheet is a bullet point list of steps to create a PC.  Another is a sheet that is a list of combat rules, modifiers, and conditions.  No deep explanations, just a couple of sheets of paper for the table.

....

Both of my daughters started gaming with me a few years ago, but my younger daughter has actually tried her hand at 1 offs a few times. I helped her prep (and she had seen me DM for a few years) so she had a good foundation, but yeah for gamers that don't have that, a good 'how to GM would be great. Of course there are a lot of youtube etc now that didn't exist back in the 80s when I started tossing dice, so there is that.

I agree on the bullet point cheat sheet. However, I will say that over the years, I have learned that the easiest way for me to learn and be able to run a new game system is to go through the rules and make my own cheat sheets (and notes for the GM screen). I read through the rules, run myself through character creation / combat / skills (taking notes on issues questions I have). Clean all of it up and make my players 'how to' notes. By the time I have that done, I have a fair handle on the system.

Quote from: Chainsaw on June 15, 2024, 07:53:02 PMMore cowbell

🤣😂😂🤣 Rgr that !

Quote from: BadApple on June 16, 2024, 05:18:35 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMBut what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Good GMs

AND

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 16, 2024, 06:57:43 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMOn the GM advice, it seems to me there are barrels of it from The Master of the Game to Robin Laws to How To Be A GURPS GM.  Whether it's all good advice is debatable.  But what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

General life experience.  They should start learning it in kindergarten, then gradually get better at it over the next few years, because it gets harder and harder to learn it the older they get.  If they haven't learned it by age 35, they probably never will.

RGR THAT to both.

Like I said, both of my daughters (along with their best church/school friend and her dad) started gaming with me a good 3-4 years ago. So I know the quality of the GMing that have seen.

Now, for my daughters, they are both slivers of my personality. What is dangerous is that being slivers of my personality, they are not balanced. My older is the bookish intellectual thoughtful (and introverted) portion of my personality. My younger is the 'yeah volunteering for jump duty and playing with explosives in the military' sounds like a great life choice, and be ready to argue your point AT ALL TIMES to EVERYONE part of my personality. But gaming has helped them modify their personality so the older is learning to be more interactive with people, and younger be more thoughtful.

So yeah learning real life skills learned early helps (now how to you book and market that ?????)

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 17, 2024, 08:40:02 AMThe hobby? Not sure. What I need is some good sandboxes with a "villain" like Curse of Strahd and Tomb Annihilation, but better and a bit leaner, or a bigger version Night's Dark Terror / Qelong, or Carcosa with a bit more meat.

I created my own sandbox but I'd probably buy if someone did the work for me.

Some people mentioned "culling", but what need here is good reviews and good reviewers. I write some, but they don't seem to attract as much attention as my other posts.

Rgr on sandbox. Even if I don't use it btb I love to idea mine them ! Rgr on Night Dark Terror Qelong Carcosa. Despite CoC & DG being one of my go to games, I do not prefer Lovecraft's level of horror (I'm more Poe). But, I LOVE King in Yellow / Carcosa !

100% agree with the need for good reviews and reviewers !

Quote from: orbitalair on June 17, 2024, 11:40:24 AM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 14, 2024, 08:17:30 PMNone. I have plenty to use until doomsday.

Now, if you mean WANT (which I believe you do) - nothing right now. Ask me again in 6 months. ;)

Oh, I forgot - some kickass Star Wars supplements that ignore Disney Star Wars. I'm thinking something massive that delves into the Star Wars killed off by Disney.

The problem with Star Wars is you cant use things because Disney holds the rights.  Otherwise you can only give it away (right?, dunno).  Unless you go off canon into the old books ??

There is a small addon to ICRPG for Star Wars, but its really pretty barebones and needs a lot more work.  Its given away for free as a fan add on.  You could get it and add more stuff.

Thank you, kind sir. I'll get right to that. :)

Quote from: BadApple on June 16, 2024, 05:18:35 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on June 16, 2024, 05:17:20 PMBut what about PLAYER ADVICE???  Think about it, where do players learn to not be problem players?

Good GMs

A thousand times THIS.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 18, 2024, 10:02:55 AM<trim>

Thank you, kind sir. I'll get right to that. :)

A one shot from the ICRPG Community page.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-thPH-Aq1LyEG6zM9i-VM6yXQhVfQHvFz1A8K9yyNGs/edit

The short setting that I mentioned.
https://icrpgcommunitycontent.com/product/star-wars-v2-icrpg-hack/

I would be glad to help if you really wanted to flesh this out more.  I see the system needing some things, to just pull it all together and spice it up with some nice artwork.

There are a lot of characters to map out, ships too.  Then theres the timeline, one really needs to know the SW timeline to set a scenario in.  Probably spice up the space combat, its not star wars if we cant blast tie fighters off our tail.

I am working on a Gamma World 1e/2e port right now.

Quote from: Jaeger on June 17, 2024, 07:53:00 PMMost new games are not ready for prime time at launch.

I'm very much in the: "Refinements of existing games (better presentation/organization, retroclones, new editions, rules tweaks, etc)" Camp.

My current poster-child for this is the Witcher RPG.

There is nothing wrong with the underlying resolution mechanic, so we should have gotten a good game.

But we didn't.

Don't throw a coin to the Witcher RPG, because it's hot trash...

For those interested in a longer rant given in the past:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-witcher-rpg-save-your-money/

The hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

I agree, just wanted to add a caveat for small publishers.

For me, it is a lot easier to sell 100 copies of a new book than to get 5 people to give it a read for free, let alone play-test.

So I test most stuff with my group, and unfortunately I sometimes still find errors due to insufficient play-testing AFTER I have published.

I agree that some errors from the big players are nearly inexcusable, but I find that true of any system TBH. Still trying to find (or write) the perfect one...

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 18, 2024, 01:01:29 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 17, 2024, 07:53:00 PMThe hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

I agree, just wanted to add a caveat for small publishers.

For me, it is a lot easier to sell 100 copies of a new book than to get 5 people to give it a read for free, let alone play-test.

So I test most stuff with my group, and unfortunately I sometimes still find errors due to insufficient play-testing AFTER I have published.

I agree that some errors from the big players are nearly inexcusable, but I find that true of any system TBH. Still trying to find (or write) the perfect one...

I sympathize, but I also think this shows a problem. It sounds like most people aren't buying those books with intent to actually play them. People noted in the recent thread on the _Shadowdark_ RPG that a year later, there is much less buzz about people actually playing it. Some people are playing it, but they're probably only a very small fraction of the 13,249 who backed the Kickstarter.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I don't think this is a problem with Eric's Chaos Factory or Kelsey's Shadowdark. I think it is an industry-wide problem. As far as I know, their books might see more actual play than most.


Still, people who buy books just to put on the shelf is a major factor in the economics of publishing.

Per the original topic, I think what the hobby needs is to focus more on what people will and do use in actual play. There are a lot of neat ideas that people will buy and put on the shelf, but what's important for the long-term of the hobby is what really gets used at the table.

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 02:28:12 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 18, 2024, 01:01:29 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 17, 2024, 07:53:00 PMThe hobby needs to demand proper game design and playtesting.

And hold people's feet to the fire when they fail to deliver. Especially when the releases come from established publishers.

Given how far the knowledge of game design within the hobby has come the past few decades, any game released with known issues is inexcusable.

I agree, just wanted to add a caveat for small publishers.

For me, it is a lot easier to sell 100 copies of a new book than to get 5 people to give it a read for free, let alone play-test.

So I test most stuff with my group, and unfortunately I sometimes still find errors due to insufficient play-testing AFTER I have published.

I agree that some errors from the big players are nearly inexcusable, but I find that true of any system TBH. Still trying to find (or write) the perfect one...

I sympathize, but I also think this shows a problem. It sounds like most people aren't buying those books with intent to actually play them. People noted in the recent thread on the _Shadowdark_ RPG that a year later, there is much less buzz about people actually playing it. Some people are playing it, but they're probably only a very small fraction of the 13,249 who backed the Kickstarter.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I don't think this is a problem with Eric's Chaos Factory or Kelsey's Shadowdark. I think it is an industry-wide problem. As far as I know, their books might see more actual play than most.

Still, people who buy books just to put on the shelf is a major factor in the economics of publishing.

Per the original topic, I think what the hobby needs is to focus more on what people will and do use in actual play. There are a lot of neat ideas that people will buy and put on the shelf, but what's important for the long-term of the hobby is what really gets used at the table.

Fair enough.

I'm partly to blame since I do buy books just to read sometimes, but I prefer the ones I can actually use 1000x more.

I think these books - especially modules, etc. - should be designed and optimized for use at the table, and I do my best to assure my books follow that ideal (not only because I actually use them at the table but because that is what I wish for any reader).

I'll buy a game sometimes with no intention of playing IT, but to incorporate some feature (sometimes mechanics, sometimes flavor) of it into a different game.

Quote from: Nakana on June 18, 2024, 03:18:07 PMI'll buy a game sometimes with no intention of playing IT, but to incorporate some feature (sometimes mechanics, sometimes flavor) of it into a different game.

I should say, I've done the same thing. Heck, I've bought books just from curiosity over what other people are talking about, with no intention even to incorporate parts.

But the collective effect is that companies can publish game books that aren't well playtested, knowing that there's a market of people who will buy them and not care. And I suspect that's bad for the hobby. The hobby should be focused on material that works well in play.

That said, I don't think that doing what's good for the hobby is all that important a duty. But if the question is what the hobby needs, I think Jaeger has a good point.

Quote from: orbitalair on June 17, 2024, 11:37:35 AMHex Paper,
https://incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/

A great site that I use to make all kinds of paper.

Quote from: LordBP on June 15, 2024, 12:17:43 PM

Quote from: BadApple on June 15, 2024, 04:46:09 AM11x17 hex paper.  Stamps for filling in those hexes would be nice too but I would love to just have a ream of 11x17 hex paper.

You might hit up Black Blade Publishing (https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/ (https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/)).

They had 11x17 hex and 17x22 hex when I ordered from them a while back.

Thanks guys

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 03:40:32 PM

Quote from: Nakana on June 18, 2024, 03:18:07 PMI'll buy a game sometimes with no intention of playing IT, but to incorporate some feature (sometimes mechanics, sometimes flavor) of it into a different game.

That said, I don't think that doing what's good for the hobby is all that important a duty. But if the question is what the hobby needs, I think Jaeger has a good point.

I see an inherent conflict there. If the hobby needs that, then all of us as "the hobby" have two options. Either we wade through the crap looking for the good stuff, just as we have to do with news, film, literature,  politics, etc., or we make peace with the fact that there will always be a ton of crap out there and we're gonna eat some of it. The price of freedom of expression is either being a judicious consumer or being content with a lot of crap. Choosing the latter and complaining about it is a "you made your bed..." situation.

I guess what I'm saying is that what the hobby needs is more judicious and better informed consumers, not "less crap." Similar outcome, but places the burden where I think it belongs - on us.

Quote from: Festus on June 19, 2024, 01:00:12 PMI guess what I'm saying is that what the hobby needs is more judicious and better informed consumers, not "less crap." Similar outcome, but places the burden where I think it belongs - on us.

The more judicious the consumer, the more crap that will be found... not less.

I agree with the first part, yet still wish there was less crap.

Part of the problem is marketplaces like dtrpg keep inventory in perpetuity and don't provide proper curating tools for the judicious consumer.

Quote from: Festus on June 19, 2024, 01:00:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 18, 2024, 03:40:32 PMThat said, I don't think that doing what's good for the hobby is all that important a duty. But if the question is what the hobby needs, I think Jaeger has a good point.

I guess what I'm saying is that what the hobby needs is more judicious and better informed consumers, not "less crap." Similar outcome, but places the burden where I think it belongs - on us.

I'd agree with that.

As a quibble, I don't like calling something "crap" if it is, say, a lovingly-written small-press game that never had outside playtesting, because there wasn't any budget for promotion.

There are plenty of good ideas out there, I think. We should want it better edited and playtested, and pay the premium for that.

Original settings, original bestiaries, original spells...

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMThe more judicious the consumer, the more crap that will be found... not less.

Sure, but known crap isn't the problem. Just don't buy it. It's the stuff one might unwittingly waste time and money on that's a problem.

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMPart of the problem is marketplaces like dtrpg ... don't provide proper curating tools for the judicious consumer.

100% agree on this. A Copper seller on DriveThru means it sold 50+ units. A cool thumbnail and supportive friends can get you there. And a such a product is more likely to only have reviews/ratings from said supportive friends. People brag about being a Gold seller, which only means 500+ units, when the DC20 KS already has ~15k backers. The bar on DriveThru is very low.

This may be part of why KS's like Shadowdark and DC20 do so well. 100+ page free samples, years long YouTube presence, high production values all contribute to consumer confidence that in turn drives sales. These elements are generally missing from DriveThru offerings.

Quote from: Festus on June 19, 2024, 02:46:46 PM

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMThe more judicious the consumer, the more crap that will be found... not less.

Sure, but known crap isn't the problem. Just don't buy it. It's the stuff one might unwittingly waste time and money on that's a problem.

Quote from: Nakana on June 19, 2024, 01:44:14 PMPart of the problem is marketplaces like dtrpg ... don't provide proper curating tools for the judicious consumer.

100% agree on this. A Copper seller on DriveThru means it sold 50+ units. A cool thumbnail and supportive friends can get you there. And a such a product is more likely to only have reviews/ratings from said supportive friends. People brag about being a Gold seller, which only means 500+ units, when the DC20 KS already has ~15k backers. The bar on DriveThru is very low.

This may be part of why KS's like Shadowdark and DC20 do so well. 100+ page free samples, years long YouTube presence, high production values all contribute to consumer confidence that in turn drives sales. These elements are generally missing from DriveThru offerings.

Not to hate on Shadowdark and DC20, but I find there are several "indie" OSR games (or indie 5e alternatives) that are far better than either for me (in terms of cool new ideas or functionality).

For example, Knave (1e) and Black Hack (1e and 2e) do not have the same KS success but are great games.

Both Shadowdark and DC20 are the result of amazing marketing campaigns, and probably putting some decent money on advertising with youtubers - despite being good or bad games (and both look good IMO, just not my favorites).

I'll agree with the "high production values" and I definitely enjoy the "100+ page free samples".

OTOH if I were to choose my games for high production values and popularity I'd be still playing 5e (well, maybe except for the WotC shenanigans).

But, anyway, I'm biased since I'm a small publisher.

Who here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

Well said, sir!

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

I get new games to try out with my table.  Fortunately, I have a great group of players that seem to enjoy the shake down trials of seeing if a system is feasible and fun.  Some of the games have stuck around, a few more have influenced house rules, but most are simply added to the pile of dust collectors.

Part of the reason I started doing reviews and posting here is that GMs can get an honest review that goes into enough depth to make a decision whether it's worth their time to take a closer look.  If there was anything else I could do to help GMs become GMS, get good games into the hands of those that will play them, and bring together more active tables, I'll do it.

I strongly encourage everyone to look at the games, modules, accessories, and equipment they actually use or have tried to use and post up reviews. Even if there are reviews up already, do your own.  Let everyone else know so that we can see an aggregate of honest gamers perspectives on the things we use and love and not just the sales pitch from the industry.

I believe that this will aid in the growth of the hobby in a positive way. 

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

I imagine most of us run fewer games than we'd like to, owing to life getting in the way. I know I do. Here's a question though: Is buying a bunch of games and cycling through them better for the longevity of those games than picking a smaller number and keeping them up and playing for years on end?

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2024, 03:34:29 PMWho here actually runs games? Not just collects them - but goes out, explores, purchases new games and *runs them*.

The gaming economy is not based on whales that collect games but doesn't run them (though that happens inadvertently with the people I'm really talking about) - it depends on people that consume games and their accessories and use them and make other such people over time.

No amount of pontificating online about your favorite game is going to get people that *don't* run games to make your game(s) of choice "successful". This means we need more good GM's. Not casual GM's (but we'll take them too), but people that love the hobby for its own sake, and want to bring that joy to people that wanna play - who MAY or may not be consumers.

This is how it's always been. Since WotC D&D doesn't really cater to GMing and how to do it - *we* need to do it. That's why we should be talking about as many games as possible. Hell if Dragon Magazine didn't do that back in the day, I'd barely have noticed gems like Skyrealms of Jorune, Runequest, Talislanta, Palladium Fantasy, and dozens of other games I spent gold on over the years.

WE are the new "Dragon". And we need to appeal to people that want to learn how to GM, and create/support more content for them. Less tribalism outside of calling out just the bad shit, but we need to promote the good shit (which we do so-so here) and entice more people to get into the GM chair.

That's what we need in the post-WotC RPG world imo.

You know, we may have some different tastes in games (we both love Faserip and d6 WEG SW, but I'm not as big a fan of Savage Worlds), but every time you post I'm struck by what a righteous dude you are.  Our hobby would be a much better place if more gamers and DMs had your outlook and philosophy.  Keep being awesome, tenbones!

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 19, 2024, 08:12:28 PMI imagine most of us run fewer games than we'd like to, owing to life getting in the way. I know I do. Here's a question though: Is buying a bunch of games and cycling through them better for the longevity of those games than picking a smaller number and keeping them up and playing for years on end?

Both.  It might benefit any particular game to be played and supported long term, but the constant experimentation and development of new games is also an important part of a thriving hobby.  So I think we need both.

For me, it is a game aimed at family play. With the number of gamers who have children and are bringing them into the hobby, there is nothing there for them. The age group should be between 5/6 to 10 years old.

Before WotC lost the Pokemon license, they had a wonderful game called Pokemon Jr. Adventure Game. (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1625/pokemon-jr-adventure-game-pokemon-emergency) This was simple, fast (only 30 minutes to play), and was linked to a recognizable brand. What I liked about this game is that it was specifically designed for the parent to be the GM, and they worked with the children to create an adventure together.

I tried doing a family-based RPG centered on fairytales, and it has done well, so much so that I need to update it because those who bought and played it want more.

I know many use old-school-based games for family play, and that is good, but I feel something aimed at a younger player base could serve as a good entry point into other games.

Quote from: RI2 on June 20, 2024, 04:15:18 AMFor me, it is a game aimed at family play. With the number of gamers who have children and are bringing them into the hobby, there is nothing there for them. The age group should be between 5/6 to 10 years old.

Before WotC lost the Pokemon license, they had a wonderful game called Pokemon Jr. Adventure Game. (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1625/pokemon-jr-adventure-game-pokemon-emergency) This was simple, fast (only 30 minutes to play), and was linked to a recognizable brand. What I liked about this game is that it was specifically designed for the parent to be the GM, and they worked with the children to create an adventure together.

I tried doing a family-based RPG centered on fairytales, and it has done well, so much so that I need to update it because those who bought and played it want more.

I know many use old-school-based games for family play, and that is good, but I feel something aimed at a younger player base could serve as a good entry point into other games.

Have you taken a look at Lordling?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/273780/lordling-fantasy-role-playing-game-for-kids

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 20, 2024, 05:03:20 AM

Quote from: RI2 on June 20, 2024, 04:15:18 AMFor me, it is a game aimed at family play. With the number of gamers who have children and are bringing them into the hobby, there is nothing there for them. The age group should be between 5/6 to 10 years old.

Before WotC lost the Pokemon license, they had a wonderful game called Pokemon Jr. Adventure Game. (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1625/pokemon-jr-adventure-game-pokemon-emergency) This was simple, fast (only 30 minutes to play), and was linked to a recognizable brand. What I liked about this game is that it was specifically designed for the parent to be the GM, and they worked with the children to create an adventure together.

I tried doing a family-based RPG centered on fairytales, and it has done well, so much so that I need to update it because those who bought and played it want more.

I know many use old-school-based games for family play, and that is good, but I feel something aimed at a younger player base could serve as a good entry point into other games.

Have you taken a look at Lordling?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/273780/lordling-fantasy-role-playing-game-for-kids

I have, and for me, it isn't what I think of with an intro family game. For me, a game like this should be easy to grasp for parents if they have not tried to run a game unfamiliar to novices. Pokemon succeeded because it was not a fantasy game. Lordling is good for a parent who is already familiar with the hobby. The market needs something geared to those who have never played a roleplying but want to try it. Easier entry points, I feel, are the way to go. At least it has worked for me regarding what I've worked on and still working on.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 19, 2024, 11:04:50 PMYou know, we may have some different tastes in games (we both love Faserip and d6 WEG SW, but I'm not as big a fan of Savage Worlds), but every time you post I'm struck by what a righteous dude you are.  Our hobby would be a much better place if more gamers and DMs had your outlook and philosophy.  Keep being awesome, tenbones!

Thanks!

I am pretty righteous about gaming. I think any of us that are on this forum, speaking in good faith, *absolutely* should be righteous about gaming. We do this thing, spend our money, some of us actually *FOR SOME REASON* are driven to write and publish it. We spend our time in real life and online talking, theorizing and philosophizing about what it all means down to the most ridiculous detail.

Who do we do this for? We do it for all of us. I don't believe in solo-roleplaying, it's communal as intended. RPG gaming will continue even if WotC and every other company goes down in flames, that cat is out of the bag. But as someone that lived through that nascent era of early TSR, when RPG's were a mere drop in the bucket population-wise compared to what it is today, it was a exciting. I didn't play every single system out there, but I loved that it all existed.

I'm still that way now. We all should be. Yes, we should enjoy some healthy schadenfreude at WotC and their lunacy, but we should all keep our eyes on the ball: we are the caretakers of our hobby - not WotC. And *we* spend the money that keeps the individuals that, despite the crazy time-consuming, obsessive natures required to create game content, keep new things landing on our tables. We are the ones that take those games, make them our own, and run them for others who *might* purchase and support those creators. It's crazy to think about, but I say lets admire that craziness and simply, righteously (as you put it) accept it: this is what we do. We love it. We should treat it as such.

And the truth is  GM's are the heart of the hobby. Sure I could (and do) design gaming stuff for myself that will never see the light of day. But that's because I know it's not up to snuff, or it was an experiment I needed to put down on paper to see it in play. It's MORE true that the ultimate intent is for other people to use this content to enjoy. GM's are the fulcrum for that. They are the primary consumers, and users that proliferate that content and we should do everything we can to keep the landscape fertile and inviting for more people to learn how to GM and more importantly how to love GMing.

That's why I think it's the most important thing for our hobby. Systems will come and go, some stick around and mutate forever, but it's the GM's of our hobby that keep it rolling. (Pun intended heh.)