Quote from: RoninI like the Conan RPG too. I've never had a chance to check out this true20. Everbody keeps talking about it. It makes me interested. I'm going to have to find a copy of it to check it out.

it is definitely on the rules lite side of things, and if you do get your hands on a copy go to the green ronin's website they have a free pdf that clarifies how the damage system works. The breakdown in the book isn't as good as it could be. The index is also crap, as are the included settings. It's a great generic system, I just wanted to let you know about the warts.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOk, we've got some peeps here busting on gurps and, apparently, thinking d20 is better than it.

I'm one of the peeps who busts on Gurps. I bust on Gurps because as a universal system it sucks. It's only good for one kind of game. A Gurps game. It's overly complicated at certain points (Combat, Character Creation) and under complicated elsewhere (the great willpower debate: for those who don't know, Gurps has no way to simulate gusto, moxy or anything similar to these). 3d6 is a retarded mechanic.

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo, what makes d20 so great? It's standard rules don't have hit locations, it's armor rules are a joke and it uses a single d20, giving it a flat probability curve on all results. Ho Hum, just do something 20 times and you're guaranteed a critical success. Yawn.

Standard rules don't have hit locations, what does that have to do with anything? Who cares. It's armor rules work very well (as an aside note, if you roll= >10+dex bonus but <10+dex+Armor bonus, you hit their armor...easy enough?). Flat probability, so you know, everyone who plays it can understand? Sweet, you mean every game I have a 5% chance of doing something awesome in combat? Or I could even have a critical failure, god forbid something entertaining is a damn near guaranteed every game, where in gurps you have what a .7% chance of doing something. Ho Hum, Boooooooring.

Quote from: Dominus NoxPersonally i can't think of anything you can do in d20 that you can't do better in gurps.

Better in D20: Playing D&D, having fun, create characters, Call of Cthulhu, easygoing games, dungeon crawls, quick startups, cross-genre mashups, Character Creation.

Better in Gurps: Hard Sci-Fi....um Realistic World War 2 games. Sounds like a lot of fun! (Not!)

I have yet to something in Gurps that Tri-Stat doesn't do better (and with one less stat!).

Neither Gurps nor D20 are my favorite systems, but I'd take D20 over Gurps any day of the week.

Quote from: KrakaJakBetter in Gurps: Hard Sci-Fi....um Realistic World War 2 games. Sounds like a lot of fun! (Not!)

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Not quite as humiliating as calling Unknown Armies old school... but still...

The young ones today, words fail me.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI brought this up myself in anothet d20 debate, the whole "Well you hit but the shot did nothing" bit. Suppose you were firing a grenade that detonated on impact?

Grenades are area effects. You hit the square, you hit the target in it, who might at best get a save for half.

If you aren't going to even discuss things the way the system actually models things, it's not making your argument too compelling.

Finally, re "armor modeled in hit rolls": that's just D&D, not all d20 variants. Some model armor as damage reduction, or a combination (you know, like GURPS once did.)

Quote from: Caesar SlaadGrenades are area effects. You hit the square, you hit the target in it, who might at best get a save for half.

If you aren't going to even discuss things the way the system actually models things, it's not making your argument too compelling.

No, that's not what he was saying.  He's talking about a grenade that explodes on impact, like say, an RPG.  If you go by a character's Defense (which would include equipment bonuses), then someone wearing a tactical vest receives a +6 equipment bonus to defense.  BUT that theoretically means that the grenade could still hit you, but do no damage, since it "missed."  So, say your defense is 10 + 6 (tac vest), that's 16, so he should need a 16 or better to hit you.  But if he rolls a 11-16 he theoretically hits your vest, which means that since it's a frickin rocket-propelled grenade, it blows up in your face regardless.  Making it a "touch attack" like I mentioned, defeats the purpose of wearing armor, since armor doesn't reduce damage, and heavy armor even puts penalties onto your Dex.  Unless I'm missing something (it's late).  

Good observation, and one I hadn't noticed before.  Hmmmn.  My knee jerk reaction would be to assign armor a "hardness" rating similar to that of objects (maybe equal to the equipment bonus) that reduces damage from area effect attacks, but since I'm not running a d20 campaign I'm not really too concerned about it.  

Pete

Quote from: KrakaJakBetter in D20: Call of Cthulhu

You dirty boy.

- Q

You know what the best thing about this whole stupid hobby is? It's that, eventually, no matter how much you think system x sucks compared to system y or what you think of the probabilities in Dingles & Doodads versus those in Dorks & Dumbasses, you realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.  You play your game and he plays his and mayhap never the twain may meet but so WHAT.

I like both d20 and GURPS for different reasons, but I've found it easier to attract players for a d20 game than it is to attract players to a GURPS game. There are just more people familiar and interested in playing with the d20 system than with GURPS in the Knoxville, TN area. So, for me, its not a question of which is better, but of practicality. I go with which game system is more likely to get me a full gaming table.

The only d20 games I've played with grenades in them (d20 Modern, B5, and SAS) all treat armor as DR. D&D itself doesn't have grenades, so how grenades interact with armor in D&D is a bit of a nonissue.

Quote from: James McMurrayThe only d20 games I've played with grenades in them (d20 Modern, B5, and SAS) all treat armor as DR. D&D itself doesn't have grenades, so how grenades interact with armor in D&D is a bit of a nonissue.

D&D has them in the form of alchemical weapons, holy water, and other thrown objects that generate a burst template.  Standard practice is usually a reflex save to avoid splash damage.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!You know what the best thing about this whole stupid hobby is? It's that, eventually, no matter how much you think system x sucks compared to system y or what you think of the probabilities in Dingles & Doodads versus those in Dorks & Dumbasses, you realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.  You play your game and he plays his and mayhap never the twain may meet but so WHAT.

another psalm for the church of the doctor

qft

Quote from: C.W.RichesonD&D has them in the form of alchemical weapons, holy water, and other thrown objects that generate a burst template.  Standard practice is usually a reflex save to avoid splash damage.

Those are touch attacks, and so avoid the whole "how does armor interact" issue by avoiding armor. They're also not physical attacks like a grenade, they're energy. Energy ignores armor as well.

Folks might ont like the interaction, but it's there, and the cases of it occurring are so rare that it doesn't need the in depth treatment it receives in the more modern versions of d20.

Quote from: pspahnNo, that's not what he was saying.  He's talking about a grenade that explodes on impact, like say, an RPG.  If you go by a character's Defense (which would include equipment bonuses), then someone wearing a tactical vest receives a +6 equipment bonus to defense.  BUT that theoretically means that the grenade could still hit you, but do no damage, since it "missed."  So, say your defense is 10 + 6 (tac vest), that's 16, so he should need a 16 or better to hit you.  But if he rolls a 11-16 he theoretically hits your vest, which means that since it's a frickin rocket-propelled grenade, it blows up in your face regardless.  Making it a "touch attack" like I mentioned, defeats the purpose of wearing armor, since armor doesn't reduce damage, and heavy armor even puts penalties onto your Dex.  Unless I'm missing something (it's late).

Well, HEAP grenades aren't precisely the province of D&D, but FWIW, there is a spell in a third party supplement that operates pretty much like this. Touch attack to strike the target, armor applies, and additional kinetic damage if you exceed the normal AC.

And again, third party products often do model armor as DR and some do modeling that goes even further, such as taking into account the psychological and physiological response to explosives.

Quote from: James McMurrayThe only d20 games I've played with grenades in them (d20 Modern, B5, and SAS) all treat armor as DR.

D20 modern doesn't treat armor as DR.

Which also related to why d20 modern's autofire rules suck so bad. The autofire spray rules effectively ignore armor.

Oops. It's been a really long time since I played d20 Modern (and only for a small part of the introductory adventure). I thought it followed the Class AC bonuses and Armor as DR model.

Does it handle grenades as being like fireballs? I don't recall seeing any explode on impact aimed grenades, but we never had military gear so it never came up.