Quote from: Christmas ApeMan, you're kidding right? That's all you've got, Nox? "Yeah, well, same to you!"?

I'm not ILing you because you offend me, Nox. I want you to know that. I'm not bothered by your odious personality, amazingly cretinous beliefs, or inability to complete a post without spewing bile on someone, whether they were talking to you or not.



I'm ignoring you because you're boring.

Well, being the total fucktard that you are, you couldn;t be expected to understand this, but basically I have you and about 20 other fucktarded morons here bashing on me, whereas you ans the rest of your scumbag brethern only have one target to fire on, namely me.

So I have to return fire on you and about 19 other fucktarded scumbags, which means even though I'm intellectually superior, I still get spread thin over the number of targets I have to cover.

Add in that sometimes I get tired, I have other topics to think  on, etc, and it's easy for someone who, unlike you, isn't a raging fucktard that occassionally I don't feel like bothering to come up with A list material, especially when doing so would basically amount to casting pearls before swine.

Jeez, Nox, you must like being hated. Sad.

Guess I can add you to the mental list alongside a few other notable folks around here.

Peace,
-Joel

D&D works great for me. Babylon 5 is also a good system. Other styles of the system, like d20 Modern, I'm not too happy with.

d20 isn't the greatest game around, but it gets the job done.

Never played GURPS (or wanted to) so can't really contribute much to that end of the discussion.

Oh and I have no beef with GURPS.  In fact, I find the idea behind it quite laudable.  I do think that D20 does certain things better (such as D&D), but I think GURPS also does certain things better (genre-mashing, crime-drama, etc.).

What sways me into D20's favor is that I'm really starting to get more into the Classes/Levels camp (of which I realize I might be the only one).  I used to be a big fan of freeform and point-buy systems but honestly, the framework that Class/Level that D20 provides is a solid gaming tool that keeps a lot of headaches out of play.

GURPS is perhaps an egregious example of the sorts of things that get out of hand with point buy, with its (IMO, deserved) reputation for having a huge shopping list of minimal-impact disadvantages to get points from.

Quote from: RedFoxWhat sways me into D20's favor is that I'm really starting to get more into the Classes/Levels camp (of which I realize I might be the only one).  I used to be a big fan of freeform and point-buy systems but honestly, the framework that Class/Level that D20 provides is a solid gaming tool that keeps a lot of headaches out of play.

I completely agree with this sentiment.  And to add that I absolutely adore d20 Modern and Futire for primarily that reason.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI brought this up myself in anothet d20 debate, the whole "Well you hit but the shot did nothing" bit. Suppose you were firing a grenade that detonated on impact? If the shot hit the target it explodes at that point, and you need to work out proximity damage from there. D20 doesn't allow for that too easily, gurps does.

I like d20 Modern much better than D&D.  Isn't something like this handled with a "touch attack" that disregards all equipment and armor bonuses.  So, if you hit, it explodes.  If you miss, you have to figure out what is behind the target, etc.  That's pretty simple.  

I think one of the things about d20 that people tend to forget when wondering why d20 is so popular (read: why there are so many d20 products) is that d20 is available for use by 2nd party publishers and GURPS is not.  Too bad for GURPS.  It was a smart move by WotC.  

As to which system is better, I think it's all a matter of taste.  The nuances of both systems are equally complex, but I think the d20 mechanic is much easier to comprehend from the start, probably because it's so familiar to many of us who used S/D/C/I/W/Ch for so many years (back when it was S/I/W/D/C/Ch).  

Pete

Quote from: Dominus NoxI can't stand d20, tho out of courtesy to my fellow gamers I don't usually bring that up. But when gurps gets bashed on, well, the gloves come off.

Yeah, this is important stuff. Don't take any shit over it. I'm just glad you could take time out from your duties as president of the Never Get Laid Assocaition to set the mutherfuckers around here straight.

Quote from: pspahnI like d20 Modern much better than D&D.  Isn't something like this handled with a "touch attack" that disregards all equipment and armor bonuses.  So, if you hit, it explodes.  If you miss, you have to figure out what is behind the target, etc.  That's pretty simple.

So more "imagining" how it hits instead of having the mechanics show that? So shooting something the size of deuce and a half truck at twenty feet is a touch attack? Again why cant the mechanics show this? Simple its broken firearms shit tacked on to D&D.  

Quote from: pspahnI think one of the things about d20 that people tend to forget when wondering why d20 is so popular (read: why there are so many d20 products) is that d20 is available for use by 2nd party publishers and GURPS is not.  Too bad for GURPS.  It was a smart move by WotC.

Sure theres lots of stuff put out for D20, but out of 250 books, 3 of them are worth a shit. While GURPS books are consistantly high quality across the board. To the point where people who dont even play GURPS buy the books to use with other games.

Quote from: pspahnAs to which system is better, I think it's all a matter of taste.

I cant really disagree with that.

Quote from: pspahnThe nuances of both systems are equally complex, but I think the d20 mechanic is much easier to comprehend from the start, probably because it's so familiar to many of us who used S/D/C/I/W/Ch for so many years (back when it was S/I/W/D/C/Ch).  

Pete

Well to be fair there are a lot of people who are experienced with D&D. So when you tell them Hey its the same system as D&D. That familiarity steadys them and makes it more acceptable. But I dont think its that hard to teach someone the core mechanics of GURPS, UniSystem, or any other game.

Quote from: RoninSo more "imagining" how it hits instead of having the mechanics show that? So shooting something the size of deuce and a half truck at twenty feet is a touch attack? Again why cant the mechanics show this? Simple its broken firearms shit tacked on to D&D.  

The mechanics are pretty clear.  One of the examples they use is splashing acid on someone.  They just call it a "touch attack" to maintain uniformity. Not to mention that something that big has a -8 DC to its defense, so if you can't hit that. . .

QuoteSure theres lots of stuff put out for D20, but out of 250 books, 3 of them are worth a shit. While GURPS books are consistantly high quality across the board. To the point where people who dont even play GURPS buy the books to use with other games.

I can't argue with that.  I can;t say enough good things about GURPS WWII.   It doesn't change the fact that d20 is perceived as more user-friendly since anyone can publish a d20 product, while GURPS seems like another closed system with its own small fan base.

QuoteI cant really disagree with that.  Well to be fair there are a lot of people who are experienced with D&D. So when you tell them Hey its the same system as D&D. That familiarity steadys them and makes it more acceptable. But I dont think its that hard to teach someone the core mechanics of GURPS, UniSystem, or any other game.

Not the core mechanics, but I guess what I meant is that it's a lot easier to teach people how to min/max d20 than GURPS, because the concepts are more clearly laid out (level bonuses, talent trees, bonus feats, etc.).

Pete

Quote from: David RLook although Sett's thread was a troll, it was a good opportunity for folks to discuss GURPs. I found the discussion pretty interesting.

Same here. We've had more than enough d20 pro/con, but the GURPS thread *almost* made me roll up a GT character, which if you know me at all you'd realize is a major turning point in my life. It's like deciding to move to Alabama because you suddenly feel this longing for swamp fever.

Quote from: pspahnd20 is available for use by 2nd party publishers and GURPS is not.

I know this gets said alot, I just don't think it gets stressed enough. I realize that there is lots of d20 crap, 3 good products out of 250 bad ones and all that, but I think that those 3 good products are a DIFFERENT set of good products depending on who your talking to. And all those people will want the PHB, DMG, and MM in order to play. Besides the fact that there is/was a kind of evolution of d20 publishers, a grinding force of the market that I think drove many of the worst off the shelves (I'm going from heresay, I wasn't in the market for the d20 boom or bust).

GURPS stuff is high quality but sometimes it is quantity and support that wins the day. Not to mention that one group of people (sjgames) can absolutely NOT have all the good ideas, nor do ALL the work (something that is lamented by even the sjgames staff). In the end it is just 'one more thing' that other games must compete against, giving up the field of battle before combat even begins is ... well ...

Quote from: Pierce Inveraritythe GURPS thread *almost* made me roll up a GT character

Oooh really!?!? Cool! Even if you don't ever do that I think turning the thread around, however it happened, was VERY cool.

There was a BD&D like game that used 3rd GURPS lite. Would you be interested in that? I kinda liked the sweat of that fever.

Quote from: pspahnI like d20 Modern much better than D&D.  Isn't something like this handled with a "touch attack" that disregards all equipment and armor bonuses.  So, if you hit, it explodes.  If you miss, you have to figure out what is behind the target, etc.  That's pretty simple.  

I think one of the things about d20 that people tend to forget when wondering why d20 is so popular (read: why there are so many d20 products) is that d20 is available for use by 2nd party publishers and GURPS is not.  Too bad for GURPS.  It was a smart move by WotC.  

As to which system is better, I think it's all a matter of taste.  The nuances of both systems are equally complex, but I think the d20 mechanic is much easier to comprehend from the start, probably because it's so familiar to many of us who used S/D/C/I/W/Ch for so many years (back when it was S/I/W/D/C/Ch).  

Pete

Well, people have suggested that gurps allow other companies to do products for it, or at least pdf products for it, which might have helped a little.

But jackson won't allow it, won't hear any dissent on the issue. I guess he's afraid of someone making a gurps product without having to jump thru hoops for him first.

Quote from: darOooh really!?!? Cool! Even if you don't ever do that I think turning the thread around, however it happened, was VERY cool.

There was a BD&D like game that used 3rd GURPS lite. Would you be interested in that? I kinda liked the sweat of that fever.

You don't mean The Fantasy Trip? In that case, I'm happy to say there's a fair chance I'll be playing it next week.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySame here. We've had more than enough d20 pro/con, but the GURPS thread *almost* made me roll up a GT character, which if you know me at all you'd realize is a major turning point in my life. It's like deciding to move to Alabama because you suddenly feel this longing for swamp fever.

 Pierce,
 Go ahead and make a G:T character - it would be fun to see what you come up with. Hell, I'm always looking for more NPCs to spring on my players. They don't all have to be adversaries - could be just another Merchant or adventurer that they meet in a starport bar.


 Oh yeah , D20 . I'm not a fan...but I don't hate it or anything tho. It still sells well - and that keeps my store in business and myself getting paychecks.  Which is always a good thing.

- Ed C.