Ok, we've got some peeps here busting on gurps and, apparently, thinking d20 is better than it.

So, what makes d20 so great? It's standard rules don't have hit locations, it's armor rules are a joke and it uses a single d20, giving it a flat probability curve on all results. Ho Hum, just do something 20 times and you're guaranteed a critical success. Yawn.

I can't stand d20, tho out of courtesy to my fellow gamers I don't usually bring that up. But when gurps gets bashed on, well, the gloves come off.

Personally i can't think of anything you can do in d20 that you can't do better in gurps. Why do people like d20 so much?

I admit to have seen one 3rd party produst that almost made me wish I could stand the d20 system, that's the 1,001 science fiction weapons book, which was most excellent, but asides from that most d20 products just don't appeal to me, except in the pornographic sense if they're made by avalance press, but I don;t get gaming stuff for porn, that's what the internet is for.

It's a good, solid game with all sorts of support.

And you don't like it, which is a vote in its favor.

D&D got me back into the hobby.  For better or worse, this is the game that shapes my mindset as a GM.  (Sadly, my player's mindset was built in MUDs on AOL... :emot-geno:)

3.5 makes it very easy to set up and execute a campaign.  GMs like myself, lacking years of experience and God-given dramatic talent, flock like doves to anything that helps us portion out our kamikaze Gnoll attacks in such a way as to ensure a long, productive night of salty snacks and funny voices.

(CR, it would seem, is not the future.  I dearly wish it were, clinging as I do to the shining hope of WFRP's Slaughter Margin and treasure tables.)

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo, what makes d20 so great?

Well...

Quote from: Dominus NoxIt's standard rules don't have hit locations

There's one thing; hit locations are tedious and way too detailed for my taste.

 

Quote from: Dominus Noxit's armor rules are a joke

If by "joke" you mean they don't go into needlessly obsessive detail, then there's another reason.

Quote from: Dominus Noxand it uses a single d20, giving it a flat probability curve on all results. Ho Hum, just do something 20 times and you're guaranteed a critical success. Yawn.

Yeah, because dice always roll all their sides before repeating a number, much like the musical twelve-tone technique. A very spurious point.

Quote from: Dominus NoxPersonally i can't think of anything you can do in d20 that you can't do better in gurps. Why do people like d20 so much?

Because it's fun to play? Sometimes the answer is really the most simple one.

Some possible answers here:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=78110#post78110

and here:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4683

Look although Sett's thread was a troll, it was a good opportunity for folks to discuss GURPs. I found the discussion pretty interesting.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo, what makes d20 so great? It's standard rules don't have hit locations, it's armor rules are a joke and it uses a single d20, giving it a flat probability curve on all results. Ho Hum, just do something 20 times and you're guaranteed a critical success. Yawn.

In any dicerolling system you're going to get a critical success if you reroll often enough. That's why D20 has the Take 20 rule: if you're in a situation where you'd have enough time to take your time about things in a relaxed manner, you can just Take 20 and get the best possible roll. Your example is silly because in most important situations you don't have time to Take 20.

it's fun, but in a beer & pretzels/videogamey way.  the learning curve is pretty small and you can throw material from any number of supplements into your game or character.  

that said, it doesn't float my boat.  i don't care for growing hp totals, the over-reliance on gear for balance issues, and the CR system is too constricting and, well, off for anything but the "standard" group.  anything other than a party of 4, using the base character types, and the estimates become less and less accurate.  if you're going to have XP, just give me a flat award per creature like the old days.

i do enjoy a good bashfest every now and then, and it does that well.

The core system is easy to teach others, the linear nature of the rolls results in lots of unexpected occurrences (which adds tension sometimes lacking with heavy bell curves), and the OGL License has resulted in it becoming a good system for folk who don't want to have to learn a lot of new rules every time they pick up a new product.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOk, we've got some peeps here busting on gurps and, apparently, thinking d20 is better than it.

So, what makes d20 so great? It's standard rules don't have hit locations, it's armor rules are a joke and it uses a single d20, giving it a flat probability curve on all results. Ho Hum, just do something 20 times and you're guaranteed a critical success. Yawn.

I can't stand d20, tho out of courtesy to my fellow gamers I don't usually bring that up. But when gurps gets bashed on, well, the gloves come off.

Personally i can't think of anything you can do in d20 that you can't do better in gurps. Why do people like d20 so much?

1) many people prefer a flat probability curve because it allows for easier on-the fly math with regards to probabilities of sucess or faliure (I can easily set a Difficulty so a player has a 15%, 20% or 25% chance of sucess... this is much more difficult to do with gurps), and you only have to roll 1 die without having to chase down and add up all the diffeent d6s. One method is not inherently better than the other, its just most gamers don't care if their probability curve is flat so lang as they are having fun.

As for "critical sucesses" those only occur in combat, and only if you confirm the critical, so that complaint holds no water.

2) Saying you can't think of anything d20 does that GURPS can do better is a pure statement of oppinion. GURPS may pay more attention to uber-realistic simulation minuta, but that isn't important to me.

I don't believe one game is inherently superior to the other. I do know that of all the gamers I have met in all the towns I have lived in, most of them use their GURPS supplements with other game systems while almost everyone plays d20 on a semi-regular basis. From the market research data I have seen, that observation holds mostly true for the gamer population at large.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOk, we've got some peeps here busting on gurps and, apparently, thinking d20 is better than it.

So, what makes d20 so great? It's standard rules don't have hit locations, it's armor rules are a joke and it uses a single d20, giving it a flat probability curve on all results. Ho Hum, just do something 20 times and you're guaranteed a critical success. Yawn.

My only experience with d20 is with D&D although I realize it has been adapted to other games since then so I hope I'm not totally missing the mark here.  I started out on original D&D in the old white box and then moved to AD&D with my group.  When I discovered RQ2, I moved to that because of some of the reasons you mentioned like hit locations, armor, etc.  I liked the added level of "realism" that RQ had, but some of my AD&D players wanted to stick with d20, not so much because of the d20 mechanics themselves but because of the overall game system features such as classes, more magic, experience points, setting, etc.  That's just my experience of course but I don't recall anyone ever arguing to me that they wanted to play d20 because they thought it was a superior system, they just liked AD&D and felt comfortable with it. Personally, with a good enough GM I can play just about anything although I'm kind of set in my ways and prefer RQ or BRP.

Sorry, I've never played GURPS so I can't make a comparison between it and d20.

i also need to clarify that my observations are based on the d&d version of d20, so to speak.  i haven't played mutants & masterminds or any other iteration of d20.

still prefer BRP/CoC, and love my gurps books for source material.

Quote from: RedFoxIt's a good, solid game with all sorts of support.

And you don't like it, which is a vote in its favor.

Cancelled out by the fact you like it, which is a good argument against it.

Man, you're kidding right? That's all you've got, Nox? "Yeah, well, same to you!"?

I'm not ILing you because you offend me, Nox. I want you to know that. I'm not bothered by your odious personality, amazingly cretinous beliefs, or inability to complete a post without spewing bile on someone, whether they were talking to you or not.



I'm ignoring you because you're boring.

I think D20 is great for D&D. I like playing 3.5. It works for me. On the other hand I hate D20 modern. Among other things the way the to hit system and armor works bother me. First off I like armor to reduce damage not prevent being hit. Now before you say it. I know even if it shows you dont hit you still may hit. It just does no damage.
Example you fire a .50 cal antimaterial rifle at point blank range at a dragon. Thats the size of a barn. But you dont hit, which is assumed to be just a hit that does no damage. That bothers me. It seems like you should be able to represent that with the mechanics of the game. With out having to imagine or assume that the dice show you dont hit, but you just hit and do no damage. That just bothers me to no end. That and some of the other gun rules. Like for Automatic fire. I dont like. That being said I really like it for D&D. It just seems to fit and go well with it to me. For what ever reason the problems I have for it in modern dont seem to bother me using it for D&D. I guess I'm a goofy fuck like that.

Quote from: RoninI think D20 is great for D&D. I like playing 3.5. It works for me. On the other hand I hate D20 modern. Among other things the way the to hit system and armor works bother me. First off I like armor to reduce damage not prevent being hit. Now before you say it. I know even if it shows you dont hit you still may hit. It just does no damage.
Example you fire a .50 cal antimaterial rifle at point blank range at a dragon. Thats the size of a barn. But you dont hit, which is assumed to be just a hit that does no damage. That bothers me. It seems like you should be able to represent that with the mechanics of the game. With out having to imagine or assume that the dice show you dont hit, but you just hit and do no damage. That just bothers me to no end. That and some of the other gun rules. Like for Automatic fire. I dont like. That being said I really like it for D&D. It just seems to fit and go well with it to me. For what ever reason the problems I have for it in modern dont seem to bother me using it for D&D. I guess I'm a goofy fuck like that.

I brought this up myself in anothet d20 debate, the whole "Well you hit but the shot did nothing" bit. Suppose you were firing a grenade that detonated on impact? If the shot hit the target it explodes at that point, and you need to work out proximity damage from there. D20 doesn't allow for that too easily, gurps does.