I'm sorry but I do not think it's worth discussing this with you unless there is some third party who actually finds it interesting. Otherwise my feeling is that it's like arguing with a Lamarckian (however sincere) who's managed to corner me at a biology conference.

I believe you're getting this site confused with this one.

It's quite simple Elliott: Either provide us with a meaningful distinction between the sense of "immersion" you're talking about, and the ordinary sense of the word "immersion", or explain why my use of the ordinary sense of "immersion" is illegitimate (use _language_ to do so, don't just go "I know it when I see it!" like that means anything of relevance).

Otherwise, shut the fuck up about your bullshit pretend-jargon. This isn't the Forge.

You may not welcome this comment, but I am finding this whole thread very interesting. I do not fell that you should continue it just for my amusement however.

jadrax, if you'd like to hear more discussion between me and Pseudo, I'll try to oblige. Otherwise I don't feel obligated to "prove" stuff to every random internet kook who wanders by.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;327842jadrax, if you'd like to hear more discussion between me and Pseudo, I'll try to oblige.

Ignoring Pseuso for the moment; I am interested in what people mean by immersion to see if it differs to mine. This thread has made me realise that one gamer I game with may be on a completely different page to the rest of us and I am interested in trying to pin that idea down further.

Pseudo is, as usual, full of shit.

Obviously "flow" and Immersion are two different things, otherwise they wouldn't need two different words to describe them. What you're describing as "flow" is really just getting your groove on, which could be done in any number of ways.

Immersion, on the other hand, is a SPECIFIC FUCKING EXPERIENCE. I know its one you Forgies want to claim either can't exist, or isn't important, or even that its dangerous if attempted ("Don't even try immersion, or you'll be mentally ill!! Play Poison'd instead, that's good and wholesome for your psyche!"); but it really does fucking exist, virginia.

Immersion is a state where you get so DEEP into the character you're pretending to play that you lose the sense that the character is just something you're controlling, and it becomes something that has a mind and life of its own. The character has his own personality and way of thinking, and you start to KNOW what the character would do, rather than guess at it.

This is not flow, which as best as I can see it is just a "good feeling" or some kind of sense of being "in the now", and is just new-age claptrap that has fuck all to do with the specific experience of Immersion, the one true real goal of any RPG Player who isn't filth. (just as Emulation is the one true real goal of any GM who isn't scum)

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;327865Pseudo is, as usual, full of shit.

I love you too, Pundy.

QuoteObviously "flow" and Immersion are two different things, otherwise they wouldn't need two different words to describe them. What you're describing as "flow" is really just getting your groove on, which could be done in any number of ways.

Actually, I'm using "flow" in the specific sense used on that wikipedia page, which is why I linked to the wikipedia page. We have two different terms for "flow" and "immersion" because "flow" is actual science jargon that collects a specific set of hypotheses about the origin and experience of complete immersion in an activity. "Really just getting your groove on" is the description of a moron for that state.

QuoteImmersion, on the other hand, is a SPECIFIC FUCKING EXPERIENCE. I know its one you Forgies want to claim either can't exist, or isn't important, or even that its dangerous if attempted ("Don't even try immersion, or you'll be mentally ill!! Play Poison'd instead, that's good and wholesome for your psyche!"); but it really does fucking exist, virginia.

I appear to have become a Forgist overnight, without any cause other than disagreeing with you and Elliott. None of the three positions you outlined match up with my opinion in any way. I think flow is good for games, and I encourage people to enter flow. Flow is the state of complete immersion in something, so encouraging people to enter flow in a game is to encourage them to completely immerse themselves

The only confusion here is Elliott and yourself, neither of whom appear to know what flow is, yakking about how immersion isn't flow because....? I'm still waiting for an answer.

QuoteImmersion is a state where you get so DEEP into the character you're pretending to play that you lose the sense that the character is just something you're controlling, and it becomes something that has a mind and life of its own. The character has his own personality and way of thinking, and you start to KNOW what the character would do, rather than guess at it.

Yes, that's a description of being in flow while pretending to be a character. Actors and con men have given us similar descriptions of pretending while in flow. You're talking about this as if this was some sort of insight or distinct phenomenon to roleplaying, instead of just a specific example of a more general activity.

QuoteThis is not flow, which as best as I can see it is just a "good feeling" or some kind of sense of being "in the now", and is just new-age claptrap that has fuck all to do with the specific experience of Immersion, the one true real goal of any RPG Player who isn't filth. (just as Emulation is the one true real goal of any GM who isn't scum)

Pundit, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to "flow", immersion or anything else.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;327842jadrax, if you'd like to hear more discussion between me and Pseudo, I'll try to oblige. Otherwise I don't feel obligated to "prove" stuff to every random internet kook who wanders by.

I told you already Elliot, the site you want is the Forge. I'm sure they'd be happy to help you figure out how your enneagram determines whether you're G, N, or S.

I'll ask it again: How does immersion in a roleplaying game differ from flow in a roleplaying game? Can you actually answer this? It doesn't appear so.

Quote from: RPGPundit;327865This is not flow, which as best as I can see it is just a "good feeling" or some kind of sense of being "in the now", and is just new-age claptrap that has fuck all to do with the specific experience of Immersion, the one true real goal of any RPG Player who isn't filth. (just as Emulation is the one true real goal of any GM who isn't scum)

Every chop wood or do some other long-running task, and you basically zone out and lose track of time entirely?

Right. That was flow.  Odd word, common experience.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;327898Every chop wood or do some other long-running task, and you basically zone out and lose track of time entirely?

Right. That was flow.  Odd word, common experience.

Not quite.

Zoning out can happen for a variety of reasons. Flow is specifically a challenge-oriented type of immersion (though the scale and type of the challenge vary). Flow would be if you started chopping wood, decided to try to chop each log faster than the one before, and became totally absorbed in that activity, lost track of time, and zoned out in a blur of logs being chopped.

Challenge at the limits of competence is the paradigmatic (though possibly not sole) cause of flow.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;327901Not quite.

Zoning out can happen for a variety of reasons. Flow is specifically a challenge-oriented type of immersion (though the scale and type of the challenge vary). Flow would be if you started chopping wood, decided to try to chop each log faster than the one before, and became totally absorbed in that activity, lost track of time, and zoned out in a blur of logs being chopped.

Challenge at the limits of competence is the paradigmatic (though possibly not sole) cause of flow.

I'm aware.

I also don't think it usually needs to be mentioned.  Most people seek optimisation and increase the natural degree of challenge as they work at an long-running task.  They don't even need to think about it; hell, they often don't even note that they're doing it.

Tasks where optimising and challenge-raising are impossible are easy to spot.  You can't get into the groove, and it sucks.

So that to me, is not the same as Immersion. As you do not need Challenge to become immersed in a character?

In fact, reflecting upon the idea, that definition of Flow it doesn't really even seem close to Immersion, Zoning Out seems the opposite of immersion, which is really becoming hyper aware of what your character would do, to the point you become that character.

Quote from: jadrax;327908So that to me, is not the same as Immersion. As you do not need Challenge to become immersed in a character?

This immersion occurs within a roleplaying game. People strive to get better at it, and they do it in response to various features in the game world interacting with them. The challenging aspect of roleplaying games is ubiquitous during play.

I feel like the most important aspect of immersion is a game master that can, rightly or not, convince the players that the game world in which they are playing exists in some heaven of ideals and therefor, matters. The rules of the world and the interaction with it has to have a basis in things all ready decided, rather than the fancy of the game masters.

Quote from: Cranewings;327931I feel like the most important aspect of immersion is a game master that can, rightly or not, convince the players that the game world in which they are playing exists in some heaven of ideals and therefor, matters. The rules of the world and the interaction with it has to have a basis in things all ready decided, rather than the fancy of the game masters.

No.

Its much simpler than that.

 People sometimes have FUN when they get really immersed in an RPG universe.

No "heaven of ideals" implied or needed.


- Ed C.