Quote from: migo on December 16, 2023, 04:33:01 AM
True, but it still serves as a base for a post-Buffy campaign in the Buffyverse.

I suppose but it doesn't have much to do with the point I made.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 15, 2023, 07:16:53 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 15, 2023, 04:17:19 PM
He works for MI6, which reports to the Minister of Defence. He's very much part of the fictional British government's structure, and is a large part of why that government is so effective (how many times has he saved the world now, after they sent him to the right place?).

I didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

Actual government agents have to account for every round they fire.  If they can't justify it, they are in deep shit.  Bond has the authority to kill whoever he wants, wherever he wants, whenever he wants without having to justify it at all to anyone.  No government agent in the West has that sort of authority. 

It's fictional; I don't want to watch Bond fill out paperwork. And if you want effective government, then the Bond books and movies have that, because they have a highly skilled agent trusted by his government to make decisions in the field. No real-world bureaucracy will ever match that. You might say that it wouldn't work well in the real world, but that's irrelevant in fiction designed to be fun.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 15, 2023, 07:16:53 PM
In that case, I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said.  The government in the Buffyverse can't deal with supernatural threats so the Slayer is necessary.  Dealing with the chose one trope is an entirely different conversation.

Someone said the Chosen One trope didn't work well in RPGs, and I raised it as a counter-example. It wasn't supposed to be an example of gaming with an effective government.

Quote from: Krazz on December 15, 2023, 04:17:19 PMI didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

For clarity (because I think I was the first one who suggested the "Buffy" setting worked better when they opened it up to an unlimited number of Slayers), I didn't mean to suggest the "Chosen One" trope can't work in an episodic series or in an RPG. What I meant to say was that I think a lone "Chosen One" who's already exclusively defined as an NPC is generally counterproductive in an RPG setting, because it immediately suggests the PCs aren't part of what is really the "most important" story dynamic of the setting in the same way that metaplot events they can't affect do. (The most frequent complaint I ever heard about the Aeonverse metaplot was the fact that the biggest fights or events, like Caestus Pax vs. Divis Mal, were limited to NPCs and couldn't be affected by PC actions.)

And even when a PC can be the Chosen One of the setting, limiting that role to a single player -- which is generally a requirement of a "Chosen One" trope -- can have undesirable fallout. What happens if more than one player wants the role? What happens if the Chosen One, in the setting, would logically have authority to give orders to the other PCs in ways the other players don't like? What happens if the players realize the GM is "plot armouring" the Chosen PC against death, but nobody else? And if he doesn't, what happens if the Chosen PC is killed and nobody else wants the role? And so on.

By allowing multiple Slayers in its world, the "Buffy" setting avoided these issues for gaming groups by allowing more than one Slayer in a group and allowing any one Slayer PC not to have to be central or indispensable to a given group or campaign plotline -- which works well for RPGs but less well for a dramatic TV or novel series based on a single primary protagonist. (It's worth noting that the series only created the "all potential Slayers now active" plot point as part of its series finale, because telling stories where Buffy was no longer unique or indispensable to her world would have been a significantly different type of show.)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 16, 2023, 02:28:33 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 15, 2023, 04:17:19 PMI didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

For clarity (because I think I was the first one who suggested the "Buffy" setting worked better when they opened it up to an unlimited number of Slayers), I didn't mean to suggest the "Chosen One" trope can't work in an episodic series or in an RPG. What I meant to say was that I think a lone "Chosen One" who's already exclusively defined as an NPC is generally counterproductive in an RPG setting, because it immediately suggests the PCs aren't part of what is really the "most important" story dynamic of the setting in the same way that metaplot events they can't affect do. (The most frequent complaint I ever heard about the Aeonverse metaplot was the fact that the biggest fights or events, like Caestus Pax vs. Divis Mal, were limited to NPCs and couldn't be affected by PC actions.)

And even when a PC can be the Chosen One of the setting, limiting that role to a single player -- which is generally a requirement of a "Chosen One" trope -- can have undesirable fallout. What happens if more than one player wants the role? What happens if the Chosen One, in the setting, would logically have authority to give orders to the other PCs in ways the other players don't like? What happens if the players realize the GM is "plot armouring" the Chosen PC against death, but nobody else? And if he doesn't, what happens if the Chosen PC is killed and nobody else wants the role? And so on.

By allowing multiple Slayers in its world, the "Buffy" setting avoided these issues for gaming groups by allowing more than one Slayer in a group and allowing any one Slayer PC not to have to be central or indispensable to a given group or campaign plotline -- which works well for RPGs but less well for a dramatic TV or novel series based on a single primary protagonist. (It's worth noting that the series only created the "all potential Slayers now active" plot point as part of its series finale, because telling stories where Buffy was no longer unique or indispensable to her world would have been a significantly different type of show.)

The original post on Chosen Ones was from someone else on the second post in the thread, and didn't mention it being limited to NPCs:

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 11, 2023, 08:46:42 PM
- Characters that are "the chosen one" or similar, since it devalues PCs.

I'd guess that would depend on how it's played out. Would you be happy to play a knight in Pendragon when only the NPC Arthur can draw the sword from the stone? Or how about playing a space marine rather than the Emperor in 40K? If they're distant and don't directly affect the plot much, I think it can be achieved.

As for Chosen One PCs, I wouldn't want a lot of the things you mentioned - plot immunity, giving orders, etc. But just because it can be done badly, doesn't mean that games that avoid that can't do well.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 16, 2023, 02:28:33 PM
For clarity (because I think I was the first one who suggested the "Buffy" setting worked better when they opened it up to an unlimited number of Slayers), I didn't mean to suggest the "Chosen One" trope can't work in an episodic series or in an RPG. What I meant to say was that I think a lone "Chosen One" who's already exclusively defined as an NPC is generally counterproductive in an RPG setting, because it immediately suggests the PCs aren't part of what is really the "most important" story dynamic of the setting in the same way that metaplot events they can't affect do. (The most frequent complaint I ever heard about the Aeonverse metaplot was the fact that the biggest fights or events, like Caestus Pax vs. Divis Mal, were limited to NPCs and couldn't be affected by PC actions.)

I liked some of the background for Aberrant, though I never ended up running anything in the Aeonverse (White Wolf's Adventure/Aberrant/Aeon Trinity). In general, I think one can extend the canon to allow the PCs to be important if that's what you want to do. If the GM and players are willing, then it's usually easy to write in changes. In Aberrant, I'd just toss the future history out and allow Divis Mal and Caestus Pax to be beaten by PC action.

I've played and run a bunch of Star Wars games set in the time of the Empire, even though Luke Skywalker is the Chosen One to defeat the Empire. Usually I haven't even needed to clash with canon, as there are many possible plots where the PCs still have a vital role to play. Still, I'd be open to setting in various alternate timelines, or simply at different times and places such that the Chosen One arc doesn't happen or isn't relevant.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 16, 2023, 02:28:33 PM
By allowing multiple Slayers in its world, the "Buffy" setting avoided these issues for gaming groups by allowing more than one Slayer in a group and allowing any one Slayer PC not to have to be central or indispensable to a given group or campaign plotline -- which works well for RPGs but less well for a dramatic TV or novel series based on a single primary protagonist. (It's worth noting that the series only created the "all potential Slayers now active" plot point as part of its series finale, because telling stories where Buffy was no longer unique or indispensable to her world would have been a significantly different type of show.)

The Angel series was also already going on before that Season Seven - so that was a clear model how there could be another relevant series of adventures even if Buffy was the only Chosen One. I had started my Buffy RPG series before the Season Seven revelation - but we still had a Slayer because early on it was shown that there could be multiple Slayers if they were revived. I also had another series of one-shots were a dead Slayer's spirit came to possess a robotic body. It's pretty easy to find a plot excuse for a spinoff if there is interest.

Quote from: migo on December 16, 2023, 04:31:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 08:37:11 PM
Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

Hercules wasn't a part of Xena, he had his own show. Xena adventured with Gabrielle and Joxer. Initially Xena was the combat monster and Gabrielle the face, but when they decided to make Gabrielle a fighter as well, they couldn't make her look good opposite Xena, so they brought in Joxer as a clown to make Gabrielle look good. And that's the point, Joxer was used to make Gabrielle look good, and thus it wasn't a 100% female party.

Joxer appears in a little less than a quarter of the Xena episodes. In most episodes, it's just Xena and Gabrielle, plus whatever guest stars there are. But sure, Joxer regularly filled in as the comic relief so that Gabrielle didn't have to be the comic relief all the time.

I agree that Xena doesn't have strong male characters in the main cast, but my point was that Hercules also doesn't have strong female characters in the main cast -- and that's OK. I don't think that RPGs or series need 50/50 gender balance, especially if there are only two or three main characters. It's OK for there to be a show like Hercules or Supernatural about two male buddies - and it doesn't need to add a strong woman character to the permanent main cast. The same goes for Xena.

Quote from: jhkim on December 16, 2023, 04:37:38 PM


I agree that Xena doesn't have strong male characters in the main cast, but my point was that Hercules also doesn't have strong female characters in the main cast -- and that's OK. I don't think that RPGs or series need 50/50 gender balance, especially if there are only two or three main characters. It's OK for there to be a show like Hercules or Supernatural about two male buddies - and it doesn't need to add a strong woman character to the permanent main cast. The same goes for Xena.

The point is that both Xena and Buffy are explicitly feminist shows, and while Xena is of the autistic lesbian variety of unhinged feminism, Buffy is the kind that every sane and well adjusted adult - even if socially conservative - can get behind. And Xena's storytelling and plot style also doesn't work well for RPGs. They started out with Xena fighter and Gabrielle face, but that wasn't sustainable. Buffy was able to sustain having Xander and Cordelia continue just being faces and not suddenly become martial arts masters over the course of the series.

Quote from: Krazz on December 16, 2023, 10:32:46 AM
It's fictional; I don't want to watch Bond fill out paperwork. And if you want effective government, then the Bond books and movies have that, because they have a highly skilled agent trusted by his government to make decisions in the field. No real-world bureaucracy will ever match that. You might say that it wouldn't work well in the real world, but that's irrelevant in fiction designed to be fun.

Bond is a government agent in name only.  The part of MI-6 he works for is only nominally part of the government too. 

Quote from: Krazz on December 16, 2023, 10:32:46 AM
Someone said the Chosen One trope didn't work well in RPGs, and I raised it as a counter-example. It wasn't supposed to be an example of gaming with an effective government.

I don't know who that was but it was not me.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 13, 2023, 11:30:35 AM
   I'd be curious to know if there are any design notes for the Narnia RPG Iron Crown was apparently working on before they got the rights pulled as an illegitimate sublicense. I had the first Narnia Solo Gamebook they did, and that included an "Inner Strength" score that could both influence and be modified by the player's choices in the narrative, so it suggests someone at I.C.E. recognized that dimension of the stories.

I have one of those Narnia gamebooks I think. Also a Sherlock Holmes gamebook.

Quote from: migo on December 16, 2023, 04:31:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 08:37:11 PM

Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

Hercules wasn't a part of Xena, he had his own show. Xena adventured with Gabrielle and Joxer. Initially Xena was the combat monster and Gabrielle the face, but when they decided to make Gabrielle a fighter as well, they couldn't make her look good opposite Xena, so they brought in Joxer as a clown to make Gabrielle look good. And that's the point, Joxer was used to make Gabrielle look good, and thus it wasn't a 100% female party.

Yeah, but if you were going to make a Xena/Hercules RPG the party would probably consist of:

Xena
Hercules
Gabrielle
Iolaus
Autolycus

And maybe Joxer is a GM character there for comic relief. 

Quote from: zagreus on December 18, 2023, 11:18:10 AM

Quote from: migo on December 16, 2023, 04:31:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 08:37:11 PM

Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

Hercules wasn't a part of Xena, he had his own show. Xena adventured with Gabrielle and Joxer. Initially Xena was the combat monster and Gabrielle the face, but when they decided to make Gabrielle a fighter as well, they couldn't make her look good opposite Xena, so they brought in Joxer as a clown to make Gabrielle look good. And that's the point, Joxer was used to make Gabrielle look good, and thus it wasn't a 100% female party.

Yeah, but if you were going to make a Xena/Hercules RPG the party would probably consist of:

Xena
Hercules
Gabrielle
Iolaus
Autolycus

And maybe Joxer is a GM character there for comic relief.

Nah man, you know someone is going to want to play Salmonius. He the real MVP

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 11, 2023, 08:11:14 PM
What makes a world good to explore in traditional stories (novels, games, movies, etc) but not as fun to explore in a tabletop game?

I think this really boils down more to adventure structure than the setting itself.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 18, 2023, 12:22:35 PM

Quote from: zagreus on December 18, 2023, 11:18:10 AM

Quote from: migo on December 16, 2023, 04:31:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 08:37:11 PM

Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

Hercules wasn't a part of Xena, he had his own show. Xena adventured with Gabrielle and Joxer. Initially Xena was the combat monster and Gabrielle the face, but when they decided to make Gabrielle a fighter as well, they couldn't make her look good opposite Xena, so they brought in Joxer as a clown to make Gabrielle look good. And that's the point, Joxer was used to make Gabrielle look good, and thus it wasn't a 100% female party.

Yeah, but if you were going to make a Xena/Hercules RPG the party would probably consist of:

Xena
Hercules
Gabrielle
Iolaus
Autolycus

And maybe Joxer is a GM character there for comic relief.

Nah man, you know someone is going to want to play Salmonius. He the real MVP

Another good option! 

Quote from: zagreus on December 18, 2023, 11:18:10 AM
Yeah, but if you were going to make a Xena/Hercules RPG the party would probably consist of:

Xena
Hercules
Gabrielle
Iolaus
Autolycus

And maybe Joxer is a GM character there for comic relief.

They did make a Hercules/Xena rpg.  I own the boxed set.  You play character's that aspire to be as good as Joxer one day.  Being as good as Gabrielle or Iolaus is a distant dream.