Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 12, 2023, 06:38:14 PM
- The majority of its in-setting conflicts have to involve practical action, tactics or strategy of the sort that can be easily represented by a mechanical rules system. (One of the reasons I've always believed that the Chronicles of Narnia can't make for a good RPG is that all its really meaningful conflicts are about whether the protagonists make the right moral choices or not, rather than whether they're strong, skilled or clever enough to win a fight.

   I'd be curious to know if there are any design notes for the Narnia RPG Iron Crown was apparently working on before they got the rights pulled as an illegitimate sublicense. I had the first Narnia Solo Gamebook they did, and that included an "Inner Strength" score that could both influence and be modified by the player's choices in the narrative, so it suggests someone at I.C.E. recognized that dimension of the stories.

  As for the Rowling quote, I wonder if that had less to do with the RPG itself as with the fact that WotC was also planning to do  gamebooks that would have featured the characters in some capacity.

It seems to me that the best worlds from fiction for RPGs are those that tend to episodic stories. Someone already mentioned Conan, and those stories are rarely unrelated (and you can start reading with any of them). Similarly, people have mentioned that urbanised worlds with effective governments make for bad RPGs, but James Bond (with his episodic films/books) shows that such a world can work for RPGs. Finally, Buffy worked along episode and season arcs, and it works well as an RPG (and it allowed for having a single over-powered chosen one in the party).

Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2023, 03:02:39 PM
It seems to me that the best worlds from fiction for RPGs are those that tend to episodic stories. Someone already mentioned Conan, and those stories are rarely unrelated (and you can start reading with any of them). Similarly, people have mentioned that urbanised worlds with effective governments make for bad RPGs, but James Bond (with his episodic films/books) shows that such a world can work for RPGs. Finally, Buffy worked along episode and season arcs, and it works well as an RPG (and it allowed for having a single over-powered chosen one in the party).

First, movies and books don't prove that these setting make for good rpgs.  Second, neither of those settings really has effective governments that can deal with things.  The government can deal with normal things but there's always something that they can't deal with.  That's where the characters are needed.  Governments can't deal with the Bond villain.  That's why they need James Bond.  The government tried to deal with supernatural threats in Buffy and failed.  That's why they need the slayer. 

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 12, 2023, 06:43:53 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on December 12, 2023, 06:17:45 PM
Good book settings are overbuilt, while good RPG settings should aim to be underbuilt.

While you make an excellent point (no plan survives contact with the enemy,) the place I thought you were going is a good point, too:

Leave yourself room to answer 'yes' to a good player question. "Hmm , I wonder if this ratman is actually from a secret race of shapeshifters." He is now, because that sounds awesome.

Kind of but not quite the same idea as the Quantum Ogre.

My opinion is that you should worldbuild RPGs with humility. RPG worldbuilding needs to be a little unfinished so the players and the GM can play Calvinball with the parts which you haven't filled in completely. It's tempting to write answers for everything, but it's better to set the tone and answer questions players can't handle themselves, and then step back.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 14, 2023, 04:59:14 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2023, 03:02:39 PM
It seems to me that the best worlds from fiction for RPGs are those that tend to episodic stories. Someone already mentioned Conan, and those stories are rarely unrelated (and you can start reading with any of them). Similarly, people have mentioned that urbanised worlds with effective governments make for bad RPGs, but James Bond (with his episodic films/books) shows that such a world can work for RPGs. Finally, Buffy worked along episode and season arcs, and it works well as an RPG (and it allowed for having a single over-powered chosen one in the party).

First, movies and books don't prove that these setting make for good rpgs.  Second, neither of those settings really has effective governments that can deal with things.  The government can deal with normal things but there's always something that they can't deal with.  That's where the characters are needed.  Governments can't deal with the Bond villain.  That's why they need James Bond.  The government tried to deal with supernatural threats in Buffy and failed.  That's why they need the slayer. 

James Bond _is_ a government agent.  This highlights a whole group of settings that are workable for games even in strong central authority settings.  Government agents fighting the agents of chaos.  Or the other way around.  Or government agents fighting the agents of righteous revolution.


Oh, and OP if you see this, could you change the title to "... _with_ gaming?"  My inner English teacher howls every time I see the title of this thread.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 14, 2023, 08:32:07 PM

James Bond _is_ a government agent.  This highlights a whole group of settings that are workable for games even in strong central authority settings.  Government agents fighting the agents of chaos.  Or the other way around.  Or government agents fighting the agents of righteous revolution.


Oh, and OP if you see this, could you change the title to "... _with_ gaming?"  My inner English teacher howls every time I see the title of this thread.

He also operates well outside of any normal governmental structure.  He's only nominally a government agent.  He and the other 00 agents exist because the normal structure of government can't cope with this stuff. 

Quote from: Mishihari on December 14, 2023, 08:32:07 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 14, 2023, 04:59:14 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2023, 03:02:39 PM
It seems to me that the best worlds from fiction for RPGs are those that tend to episodic stories. Someone already mentioned Conan, and those stories are rarely unrelated (and you can start reading with any of them). Similarly, people have mentioned that urbanised worlds with effective governments make for bad RPGs, but James Bond (with his episodic films/books) shows that such a world can work for RPGs. Finally, Buffy worked along episode and season arcs, and it works well as an RPG (and it allowed for having a single over-powered chosen one in the party).

First, movies and books don't prove that these setting make for good rpgs.  Second, neither of those settings really has effective governments that can deal with things.  The government can deal with normal things but there's always something that they can't deal with.  That's where the characters are needed.  Governments can't deal with the Bond villain.  That's why they need James Bond.  The government tried to deal with supernatural threats in Buffy and failed.  That's why they need the slayer. 

James Bond _is_ a government agent.  This highlights a whole group of settings that are workable for games even in strong central authority settings.  Government agents fighting the agents of chaos.  Or the other way around.  Or government agents fighting the agents of righteous revolution.


Oh, and OP if you see this, could you change the title to "... _with_ gaming?"  My inner English teacher howls every time I see the title of this thread.

I don't think you can edit the titles of threads already posted on this forum.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 14, 2023, 09:18:47 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on December 14, 2023, 08:32:07 PM

James Bond _is_ a government agent.  This highlights a whole group of settings that are workable for games even in strong central authority settings.  Government agents fighting the agents of chaos.  Or the other way around.  Or government agents fighting the agents of righteous revolution.


Oh, and OP if you see this, could you change the title to "... _with_ gaming?"  My inner English teacher howls every time I see the title of this thread.

He also operates well outside of any normal governmental structure.  He's only nominally a government agent.  He and the other 00 agents exist because the normal structure of government can't cope with this stuff.

He works for MI6, which reports to the Minister of Defence. He's very much part of the fictional British government's structure, and is a large part of why that government is so effective (how many times has he saved the world now, after they sent him to the right place?).

I didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

Quote from: Krazz on December 15, 2023, 04:17:19 PM


I didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

Buffy serves a good example of how you can do it with power disparity, because Joss Whedon back then did feminism in a way that was actually palatable. He wanted to make strong female characters who were contrasted with strong male characters (the exact opposite of Xena, for instance).

Each of the 6 main characters, Buffy, Angel, Willow, Giles, Cordelia and Xander had their own niche, and had a counterpart of the opposite sex who filled that same niche. Cordelia and Xander were social, and compared to the rest of them, absolute wizards at it. Willow and Giles were geniuses. Buffy and Angel were supernaturally strong.

That's a good way to present strong female characters, and also a great way to construct a party of adventurers.

Quote from: Krazz on December 15, 2023, 04:17:19 PM
He works for MI6, which reports to the Minister of Defence. He's very much part of the fictional British government's structure, and is a large part of why that government is so effective (how many times has he saved the world now, after they sent him to the right place?).

I didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

Actual government agents have to account for every round they fire.  If they can't justify it, they are in deep shit.  Bond has the authority to kill whoever he wants, wherever he wants, whenever he wants without having to justify it at all to anyone.  No government agent in the West has that sort of authority. 

In that case, I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said.  The government in the Buffyverse can't deal with supernatural threats so the Slayer is necessary.  Dealing with the chose one trope is an entirely different conversation. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 15, 2023, 07:16:53 PM


In that case, I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said.  The government in the Buffyverse can't deal with supernatural threats so the Slayer is necessary.  Dealing with the chose one trope is an entirely different conversation.

Buffy's other boyfriend, Riley, was a member of The Initiative, a spec ops team that fights demons.

Quote from: migo on December 15, 2023, 04:44:08 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 15, 2023, 04:17:19 PM
I didn't offer Buffy as an example of a government agent, but rather of an over-powered Chosen One working well in an episodic game/TV series, even when part of a group.

Buffy serves a good example of how you can do it with power disparity, because Joss Whedon back then did feminism in a way that was actually palatable. He wanted to make strong female characters who were contrasted with strong male characters (the exact opposite of Xena, for instance).

Each of the 6 main characters, Buffy, Angel, Willow, Giles, Cordelia and Xander had their own niche, and had a counterpart of the opposite sex who filled that same niche. Cordelia and Xander were social, and compared to the rest of them, absolute wizards at it. Willow and Giles were geniuses. Buffy and Angel were supernaturally strong.

That's a good way to present strong female characters, and also a great way to construct a party of adventurers.

Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

That's not a great RPG model because there's only two people in the main cast, but not because of the gender balance. IMO, there's nothing wrong with having a 100% male party, and also nothing wrong with having a 100% female party, or anything in between.

Quote from: migo on December 15, 2023, 08:14:30 PM

Buffy's other boyfriend, Riley, was a member of The Initiative, a spec ops team that fights demons.

They weren't particularly effective at it though.

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 08:37:11 PM
Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

Hercules showed up once in a blue moon.  The only non-villain male character that showed up regularly was this guy.  The bumbling comic relief.

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 08:37:11 PM

Saying Xena didn't have strong male characters is weird, since it was a spinoff of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys set in the same world. Sure, Hercules only occasionally showed up on the Xena series, but that's because they were both buddy series - i.e. only two main characters. Hercules adventured with Iolaus, and Xena adventured with Gabrielle. They're exactly parallel.

Hercules wasn't a part of Xena, he had his own show. Xena adventured with Gabrielle and Joxer. Initially Xena was the combat monster and Gabrielle the face, but when they decided to make Gabrielle a fighter as well, they couldn't make her look good opposite Xena, so they brought in Joxer as a clown to make Gabrielle look good. And that's the point, Joxer was used to make Gabrielle look good, and thus it wasn't a 100% female party.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 15, 2023, 10:17:03 PM

Quote from: migo on December 15, 2023, 08:14:30 PM

Buffy's other boyfriend, Riley, was a member of The Initiative, a spec ops team that fights demons.

They weren't particularly effective at it though.

True, but it still serves as a base for a post-Buffy campaign in the Buffyverse.