TheRPGSite

I've played Theater of the Mind until now, but have been looking for a good battle map and set of figures or pawns to use.

My first instinct is to look here for monsters: http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Pawns-Bestiary-1-Box/dp/1601254245/ref=sr_1_4?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1430287822&sr=1-4&keywords=pathfinder+pawn

You get a ton of cardboard cutout figures with bases to use. The only problem is that it has so few of each monster. Like 3 goblins. Nobody ever fights ONLY three goblins. So it is basically unuseable if I'm running something like Lost Mines of Phandelver.

For the battle mat, there is the Chessex one. http://www.amazon.com/Chessex-Role-Playing-Play-Mat/dp/B0015IQO2O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430287918&sr=8-1&keywords=chessex+mat

But everybody says that arrives rolled up and needs to go through some uncreasing before you can use it. Surely there are some big mats out there that aren't so foolishly packaged?

I've been gaming since slightly after Old Geezer was a pup. In that time I've accumulated a lot of gaming stuff: hundreds of Fantasy minis, hundreds of Sci-Fi and Star Wars minis, and a hundred or so Call of Cthulhu and 20s/30s Gangster minis. I like minis. Its cool having a mini that looks like a specific character (and vice versa). I like using the miniatures to show where the characters are. It helps with getting everyone on the same page and with clarifying line of sight (LOS) questions. I don't use move by square or hex as that is too time consuming and frankly it seems a little to gamey. I used to paint minis with a good friend of mine and occasionally with my wife. It made painting a social activity and it was great having someone there as an audience. Also we shared paints which greatly increased the variety of colors available. I spent a lot of time painting and it took a while learning to get good at painting. I still have a few of my first efforts untouched by later editing. Gosh do those first paint jobs suck.

But I can't recommend buying and painting minis as a fast solution for gaming. There are a lot of paper-based solutions and for showing relative position and LOS, bottle caps, dice, paper clips, salt shakers, or any old thing works. (They just don't have the cool factor of nice minis.)

I've got a roll up erasable battle mat that I bought 30 years ago. It comes with preprinted squares. I break it out for big fights, but for most day to day gaming scribbling stuff on scrap paper or just using a table top works find. (I can't recall if I got it at a game store, at one of the few cons I went to, or if I mail ordered it.) In fact you can just do an Xs and Os kind of scribble map and skip the minis altogether and that will show positioning and LOS.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828769You get a ton of cardboard cutout figures with bases to use. The only problem is that it has so few of each monster. Like 3 goblins. Nobody ever fights ONLY three goblins. So it is basically unuseable if I'm running something like Lost Mines of Phandelver.

They sell the PDFs for the various sets. I recommend buying one phyiscal set and then instead of buying more pawns just pay for the PDF and print them yourself on cardstock.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828769For the battle mat, there is the Chessex one. http://www.amazon.com/Chessex-Role-Playing-Play-Mat/dp/B0015IQO2O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430287918&sr=8-1&keywords=chessex+mat

Buy Pathfinder Flip mats like this one.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8oto?Pathfinder-FlipMat-Basic


Chessex sucks over the long haul. I been using Pathfinder flip-mats for a while and when it gets too dingy it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to replace it.

Quote from: estar;828801I been using Pathfinder flip-mats for a while and when it gets too dingy it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to replace it.

I heard that one is folded and has creases that causes ink to gather in it and it's hard to get it to lay flat. Is it true?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828804I heard that one is folded and has creases that causes ink to gather in it and it's hard to get it to lay flat. Is it true?

It has creases and it lays flat. It not perfect but better than a chessex.

If you want to go the extra mile get a piece of plexiglass and lay the map underneath that. That fixes any flatness issue with any map as well as providing a solid surface.

Yes plexiglass doesn't fold so there is that.

Standard Chessex mat, but I do own a lot of the Pathfinder battlemats, which are fun at times.

As far as figures - Reaper.

But if you can get your hands on them, and you don't mind your figures being a little OVER THE TOP - I highly recommend getting Rackham's Confrontation figures. I usually use them for my big bad NPC's or my own personal PC's once they're around 7th level or higher. They're pretty epic.

I've used miniatures and various things, but my favorite are TFT-style cardboard counters.

One inch hex maps, cardboard counters square and a bit smaller than an inch, with a character printed on them, where the top of the character aligns with a hexside to show front facing. These can be mass produced by printers (or copiers) and glued onto cardboard and cut out.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ1-GE9kFMtfmZsa3b3cn5QlmwWQXeP3L6ZDVgfEc-66Y4xM-eR)

(https://i0.wp.com/www.darkcitygames.com/games/COK.400x400.jpg)

They have advantages over miniatures, in that it's entirely clear which direction they are facing (which is of course crucial in a proper combat system), and when they fall prone or even accumulate into heaps of bodies, you can still have other characters (try to) stand atop the piled dead without having your miniature fall over, or needing to remove the bodies (body placement being significant in a proper combat system for terrain effects on movement and combat, collateral damage to maimed but living bodies, hand-to-hand combat pig-piles, taking weapons from the fallen, etc...).

I use the Crystal Caste Battle Board (http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=BT). Comes with a double sided mat (hex and squares). It's pure awesome sauce.

I absolutely recommend the Pathfinder Pawns. You can carry a decent pile of them with you, and they are spiffy looking. Easy to use. I have some 6 sets, and I have THOUSANDS of "minis". A super good deal IMHO.

Mats are easy to "un-crease". Just lay them out on a table and leave for a few days. You can pile up some game books on the crease to speed up the process. If all else fails, I will use a warm iron and a towel (don't iron directly!). You don't need the iron to be furnace hot, but hot enough to penetrate a towel. Skip the steam. :-) I generally only do this when I'm in a hurry.

Also, I keep my battle board mat folded in half inside the bb. The crease usually disappears in 30 min.

I use regular minis ( a vast collection of Warhammer (citadel), Reaper, Mantic, and various other smaller companies), but never used a map-sheet. I game on a felt-lined gaming table and use modelled terrain.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828769For the battle mat, there is the Chessex one. http://www.amazon.com/Chessex-Role-Playing-Play-Mat/dp/B0015IQO2O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430287918&sr=8-1&keywords=chessex+mat

But everybody says that arrives rolled up and needs to go through some uncreasing before you can use it. Surely there are some big mats out there that aren't so foolishly packaged?

I have a square mat and a hex mat like that.  I haven't used them in a while.  They were definitely sold rolled up.  I don't recall ever having to go through an "uncreasing" period.  I was using it the day after I bought it.

When I used minis for sessions I did not use a grid or hexes. But were I to use them now I might employ Heroscape tiles as they make for some nice 3d terrain compatible with most minis.

But one thing I like as quick and easy minis are tri-fold standups.

(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1633344_md.jpg)

These were for a postcard game contest. They have two sides and a back and are 25mm scale.

There are also tri-fold font sets out there for all sorts of fantasy and sci-fi creatures.

How do you guys handle minis for swarms of creatures like Goblins?

You can't just have one or two, you need like 10. But most packages only give you 3 or so of each. There's no way anybody would buy like 7 Pathfinder Pawn Bestiary boxes for that...

I vary rarely use minis. When I have it was with no hexs/grid. My favorite use of minis was "weird" western (western with supernatural) I used 54mm cowboys and indians. That I had modified and painted.

Quote from: estar;828801Chessex sucks over the long haul. I been using Pathfinder flip-mats for a while and when it gets too dingy it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to replace it.

I disagree.

I've been using a Chessex battlemat, which I've owned since the 80s.
It works just as fine now as it did then.
There's a few light stains on it where someone used a red marker which didn't come off completely, but it works just as well now as it did roughly 30 years ago.

I use minis and I have a few shelves of them.  lots of undead, gobbos, orcs, demons, miscellaneous humans and demi humans.
A few dragons and various other monsters.

Quote from: Skarg;828832They have advantages over miniatures, in that it's entirely clear which direction they are facing (which is of course crucial in a proper combat system), and when they fall prone or even accumulate into heaps of bodies, you can still have other characters (try to) stand atop the piled dead without having your miniature fall over, or needing to remove the bodies (body placement being significant in a proper combat system for terrain effects on movement and combat, collateral damage to maimed but living bodies, hand-to-hand combat pig-piles, taking weapons from the fallen, etc...).

But they are flat and do not even remotely show proper height or line of sight and determining line of sight is significant in a proper combat system.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828884How do you guys handle minis for swarms of creatures like Goblins?

You can't just have one or two, you need like 10. But most packages only give you 3 or so of each. There's no way anybody would buy like 7 Pathfinder Pawn Bestiary boxes for that...

1) Buy more minis.

2) Use other random minis and pretend they are goblins. Always remove the other minis first, keep the 3 goblin minis (swapping out as needed) on the board until the end.

3) Use pennies, dice, bottle caps or other things for the extra goblins. Remove and replace as in 2).

I guess I'm the only one who uses minis for PCs and tokens, dice, chits and buttons for monsters.

Quote from: cranebump;828911I guess I'm the only one who uses minis for PCs and tokens, dice, chits and buttons for monsters.

Always used to do that, or least whenever there was a question of positioning. It never used to be exact (i.e. grid-based play). These days my players have grown fond of pretty miniatures, and they've been supplying the majority of them. My own preference is for theatre of the mind, but I've been making more use of a couple of Chessex wet-erase mats (one of which I've had for years) with the aforementioned miniatures (again, just for general positioning), and it's been working very well. If I were going to focus more on actual grid-based, exact-positioning style play, I'd probably go for Paizo's flip mats (or Dwarven Forge if you have lots of space and very deep pockets).

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828884How do you guys handle minis for swarms of creatures like Goblins?

You can't just have one or two, you need like 10. But most packages only give you 3 or so of each. There's no way anybody would buy like 7 Pathfinder Pawn Bestiary boxes for that...

I have lots and lots of goblin, Orc, Zombie, Skeleton, Lizardmen minis.
I have a large variety of other minis. I just have lots of minis.
I like to collect them and paint them, so it's not a chore for me.
 
If I don't have a specific mini, I substitute something that looks sorta like it or just use small dice to represent them.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828884How do you guys handle minis for swarms of creatures like Goblins?

You can't just have one or two, you need like 10. But most packages only give you 3 or so of each. There's no way anybody would buy like 7 Pathfinder Pawn Bestiary boxes for that...

If you are few or no on a monster thats in large groups. Use pennies or dice. I had a batch of green 6-sided dice that I used for hoards of low level monsters. Also doubled as HP trackers.

If I have time to prep then I can make a batch of counters or if I am feeling more creative, tri-folds.

I have a batch of skavenslaves from my Warhammer days and those can make appropriate standings as well.

But usually for mass combat now I just describe it. None of the current group are into minis and prefer "just describe it" anyhow. But I'll break out some dice or pennies if positioning is important for some reason.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828884How do you guys handle minis for swarms of creatures like Goblins?

You can't just have one or two, you need like 10. But most packages only give you 3 or so of each. There's no way anybody would buy like 7 Pathfinder Pawn Bestiary boxes for that...

Say hello to em4miniatures (http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Copy_of_Fantasy.html)

50 orcs for roughly $15 CAD

I also cast my own minis on the cheap using BlueStuff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDbNmvUY9II).

Quote from: TristramEvans;828944Say hello to em4miniatures (http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Copy_of_Fantasy.html)

50 orcs for roughly $15 CAD

I also cast my own minis on the cheap using BlueStuff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDbNmvUY9II).

Those orcs have potential. How much space does the base take up? One inch?

I use the Chessex Megamat (http://www.amazon.com/Chessex-Playing-Double-Sided-Reversible-Miniature/dp/B000XQQHK8/) because the dimensions are better for my table than the mat you linked to.

When you roll the Chessex map up, make sure you roll it with the face you normally use facing out. The "curve" will then point towards the table and pose no problem whatsoever. (It also goes away fairly quickly. Like, within minutes.)

I recommend picking up some of those glass beads people use for gaming counters (http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Shield-Gaming-Counters-Ruby/dp/B000VJK9W4). Get a variety of colors and you can use them to stand in for generic monsters you don't have figures for yet.

For the miniatures themselves, hit up eBay and other secondary markets for cheap hordes. Things are more expensive than they were a couple years ago, but if you dig deep with a little patience you can usually build up some good collections for $1.50 per prepainted piece (or thereabouts). You can get 100 skeletons for $26 (http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Creations-2104TLC-Bag-Skeletons/dp/B002IS5YLM).

If you don't care about having them painted, then I recommend grabbing Reaper Bones (http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones%20goblin/latest/77024). Or the Kings of War miniatures from Mantic Games if you want particularly large hordes of something.

The real trick for me was laying in the supply of multi-colored counters and then just slowly laying in miniatures as the mood (and budget) struck me. Now I've got hundreds of figures neatly organized into drawer units that I can place next to the game table and I find that I only rarely need to pull out the generic tokens. (But it took about 15 years to get to that point.)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828955Those orcs have potential. How much space does the base take up? One inch?

They're 28mm scale, so base should be around 20mm...so .787th of an inch.

THIS (http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/em4/orcsy.htm) page shows some conversions of these orcs.


For slightly smaller figs on the cheap, check out Dark Alliance miniatures (http://shop.1-72depot.com/category/miniatures/1-72/figures/dark-alliance/) at 1:72 scale. They've got some pretty nice sculpts (mostly PJackson LOTR based), and sell in boxes of 40 for @$12 - 20. Orcs, goblins, Wargs, elves, dwarves, undead, and amazons all featured.

(http://theredbox.com.ua/ckfinder/userfiles/images/ALL72003_600_zad.jpg)
(http://shop.1-72depot.com/files/2014/11/k3pzMeOoXeE.jpg)
(http://cs621530.vk.me/v621530355/18a20/YNI4eTEohjw.jpg)
(http://shop.1-72depot.com/files/2013/11/Light-Cavalry-undead-back-cover.jpg)
(http://shop.1-72depot.com/files/2013/11/heavy-infantry-undead-back-cover.jpg)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;828884How do you guys handle minis for swarms of creatures like Goblins?

You can't just have one or two, you need like 10. But most packages only give you 3 or so of each. There's no way anybody would buy like 7 Pathfinder Pawn Bestiary boxes for that...

I dig into my HeroQuest box sets and haul out 10 goblins.

I've always been fond of games with high toy value.  So games like Heroquest, Battlemasters, Descent, Heroscape, and Wrath of Ashardalon are perfect bait for me.  They also serve excellent double duty as pieces for RPGs.

A big part of it is accumulation over time.  I've been gathering my miniature hoard for 30 years now.  If you pick up a few miniatures every once in a while they just add up over time.

Way back in the day, if I needed minis for those 10 goblins, I subbed whatever I had: other minis, chess pieces, counters, pennies, whatever.

Even after all these years, I still can't field a decent miniature mech force.  If you want anime styled mecha, the options for gaming minis just flat out suck.  So, I use what few mecha minis I have as well as some of the cartstock stand ups from the old Battletech Reinforcements box.  If need be, I use some pencil sharpeners I got from the Gundam Z series set (which have mech minis on top), or some of my Gundam action figures.

I didn't see anyone else mention them but the D&D Dungeon Tiles are pretty good.  They are a bit pricey, but the ability to assemble them in different configurations is pretty handy.  There are several big sets with the 4e branding, which are probably better deals than the individual $10 packs.

They're especially nice if you want something a little bit more artistic than dry erase marker on a battlemat.

One more in favor of Chessex battlemat. I've had mine since the late 80's. It's a beast. Also check their site, you can sometimes buy factory seconds on the cheap. I picked up one of the mid-sized mats a few years back for not quite half-off, with only a pair of tiny imperfections in the gridlines.

I do not own a lot of minis as yet. The hardest part of minis collecting for me was deciding where to begin. In the end I bought a couple sets of pig-faced orcs from [company name I do not remember]. I try to get a small pack of monsters, or a few pc type figures per week. It adds up quickly. Far more quickly than I can paint them. Also, check ebay frequently.

I have about 15 unopened sets of Dungeon Tiles that never got used during 4e's run. They look great but I'd never fiddle with them during a game. You can assemble a good looking setpiece with them ahead of time though. They also love to slide around and spin, so get some blu-tac or that cheap kitchen cabinet liner if you play on a bare table.

Quote from: Raven;829012In the end I bought a couple sets of pig-faced orcs from [company name I do not remember].

Are these the Orcs? If so, they're from Otherworld Miniatures.
(http://otherworldminiatures.co.uk/figures/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/fitzorcs1.jpg)

I looked at a picture of the Chessex battlemats.

Chessex looks like what I have. I've used it for 2-3 decades. I use a card board cylinder roll from used up Xmas wrapping paper and roll the mat around that with the 'board' side facing out. It never creases. It always lays perfectly flat.

I have two 36" x 24" dry-erase double-sided square/hex mats by Role 4 Initiative that I put together into a 3' x 4' surface — which is what those larger Chessex mats are, right? I've always found wet-erase a bit of a nightmare though, which is why I've avoided those.

The grid is mostly to help draw lines, not for movement or positioning; movement is by flexible curve ruler, marked with 10ft increments every 3 inches (AD&D-style). I keep these inside the same poster tube I use for the mats, the eraser and the pens.

Minis are Lego minifigs for the party, with weapon and armor swag from third-party vendors, and hex bases. Opponents are a variety of other marker types, differentiated by color.

More Chessex tips: Crayola washable markers work well and are cheaper and easier to find than Vis-a-Vis pens. Also baby wipes are great for cleanup and much less of a hassle than spray bottles and paper towels.

Quote from: Bobloblah;829016Are these the Orcs? If so, they're from Otherworld Miniatures.

That's the ones. I wish mine would look that nice when I finally paint them.

I've been buying a bunch of Pathfinder Pawns sets for my Classic D&D campaign, they work really well. I bought both the Rise of the Runelords & Shattered Star sets, and now have a ridiculous number of Goblins. :D

I sometimes feel like I'm one of the only gamers who's never made any kind of meaningful attempt at collecting minis.  

I've almost never used them in play, but in those very rare situations where for some reason I've wanted to, I just use whatever:  heroquest minis, chess pieces, buttons.  Doesn't really matter.

Generally I don't use minis but there are exceptions.

In Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands there is a mechanic whereby you create encounters by randomly drawing colour-coded d6 from a jar; the colour and the facing value determine the properties of each critter. It is less weird than it sounds. The point is the individual d6s also become a handy makeshift minis. It works really well.

And then that time I ran Marvel Super Heroes using heroclix and 3-d props for scenery. It was glorious. I found that even without a grid or strict range measurements the visual information generated a lot of ideas and it was very pretty. A lot of prep to have everything at hand as not to slow things too badly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;829275I sometimes feel like I'm one of the only gamers who's never made any kind of meaningful attempt at collecting minis.  

I blame tobacco. ;)

We use minis (often lego) or counters (generally 2p pieces). We started out using all minis but it slows down your game looking for the right mini, so we often use them only for PCs.

I use a mat with grid lines as a guide for drawing walls on (not for movement) but not some official battlemat - just a sheet of the transparent book covering film with the squared backing paper. I draw thick lines every third square on the back and it shows through nicely. We use three squares = 10'. It makes a nice big map and rolls up to put away.

Quote from: TristramEvans;828963They're 28mm scale, so base should be around 20mm...so .787th of an inch.

The em4 plastic orcs and dwarves have large 25mm/1" square integral bases.

Quote from: RPGPundit;829275I sometimes feel like I'm one of the only gamers who's never made any kind of meaningful attempt at collecting minis.  

I've almost never used them in play, but in those very rare situations where for some reason I've wanted to, I just use whatever:  heroquest minis, chess pieces, buttons.  Doesn't really matter.

Pretty much my way too. I have alot of minis I can call upon from various board games like Heroquest, Warhammer Quest, Heroscape, etc. But usually I dont feel like digging them out or theres really no need.

Graph paper for indoor/city maps, hex paper for large outdoor maps of regions and such, never used a miniature to date. If I need to represent where someone or something is, I just use a die or poker chip or eraser or something else that is handy.

We have used numerous figures in our games and have now turned to lego minis or even some knock-off brands off ebay. They work wonderful and there are a ton of options!

As far as a map goes, I love the plexiglass idea! I mean if you plan on gaming often why not!

Quote from: RPGPundit;829275I sometimes feel like I'm one of the only gamers who's never made any kind of meaningful attempt at collecting minis.  

I've almost never used them in play, but in those very rare situations where for some reason I've wanted to, I just use whatever:  heroquest minis, chess pieces, buttons.  Doesn't really matter.

I don't use minis for RPGs. So between the time that I first played Warhammer in 89 to 92 up until I got back into it @2-3 years ago, I did not collect a single mini, not counting a brief stint playing Mordheim in the early aughts.

For the most part, with RPGs, I prefer "theatre of the mind", only drawing maps when necessary. But recently Ive become more and more interested in wargames that bleed the line between miniatures game and RPG. Its a significantly greater investment, but Im financially secure enough now that I can do up a table with all the appropriate scenery to actually make the game work.

Im currently looking at adapting my Phaserip rules to a sort of modern Braunstein.

Its not the exact same type of game as a pure RPG, but it hits a geeky button thats related.

When I was poor and couldn't afford many minis, I used to always want to use them.  Then when I finally had a decent number of minis (in the 90s) the people I played with kept wanting to exclusively play a game system which didn't even support decent rules for abstracted combat, much less minis play.

The big minis games for me and the people I played with were Marvel Super Heroes and Mekton II.  For a long time I had three maps for MSH (the Original set, the Advanced Set, and Secret Wars II) laid out on my huge game table.  Lots of super hero battles were held in that city.  And Mekton always meant breaking out my substitute Battletech minis and the battlemat.

I've added lots of minis to my hoard.  I have nearly everything made for Heroscape.  I also have tons of MageKnight.  Then there are boxes full of Heroquest, Battle Masters, Descent, and other games as well as metal and plastic gaming minis I've bought over the years.  I also have two huge battlemats and tons of dungeon tiles.

Yet, now I just abstract combat.  I don't pull out the minis for RPGs very often.  This started somewhere mid to late 00s.  It was probably a combination of sleep apnea exhaustion and depression, but I just quit wanting to mess with anything.  I didn't want to set stuff up.  I didn't want to clean up afterwards.  I saw it all as just a huge pain in the ass.

When I want to play with minis nowadays, I suggest hauling out one of the minis-centric boardgames.  I still like playing with minis, but for RPGs I don't want to deal with the minis game setup and cleanup step.

Some of you sound like using miniatures at all requires a 4e mindset. We set them on the table to show marching order, and sometimes they go on the mat to clearly illustrate positioning, but we don't drag them out for lengthy set-up every time we run into some goblins or count out exact squares of movement every single turn. Minis don't force you into tactical battles mode nor do they prevent you from running abstract combats. Thay're just a tool like anything else.

Quote from: Raven;829421Some of you sound like using miniatures at all requires a 4e mindset. We set them on the table to show marching order, and sometimes they go on the mat to clearly illustrate positioning, but we don't drag them out for lengthy set-up every time we run into some goblins or count out exact squares of movement every single turn. Minis don't force you into tactical battles mode nor do they prevent you from running abstract combats. Thay're just a tool like anything else.

Yes, THIS! Exactly this. Minis are a tool for helping everyone at the table see a similar scene and know who is on the left of whom, in front of whom, close to whom, etc.

I can do the same thing with Xs and Os and a quick sketch, but with minis its easier to keep straight who is who. Also generally it's faster to move a mini than to redraw the sketch.

For some folks nice minis help with imagining the scene or character and they are just fun to look at, pick up, and have around.

Quote from: Raven;829421Some of you sound like using miniatures at all requires a 4e mindset. We set them on the table to show marching order, and sometimes they go on the mat to clearly illustrate positioning, but we don't drag them out for lengthy set-up every time we run into some goblins or count out exact squares of movement every single turn. Minis don't force you into tactical battles mode nor do they prevent you from running abstract combats. Thay're just a tool like anything else.

Personally, I don't feel they're worth using for that.  At that low level of precision, abstracting things works fine for me.

The Crystal Caste Battle Top is an awesome idea.  I will need to pick one up, or rig up a simulacrum.  It effectively doubles your table space!

I would not expect to have a instantly complete mini collection.  As listed in this thread, there are a variety of methods to build up a collection.  I myself have done so with Reaper Bones I and II, bulk MageKnight, Heroclix, World of Warcraft, Dreamblade and various odds and ends on the cheap (relatively).  You would surprised what kind of animals/monsters you see on the cheap if you keep an eye out for them.  

I used a mix of TOTM and Minis/terrian/maps.  Both systems have their str and weaknesses.

The Dwarven Forge I and II KS were really good deals, sadly they are passed.  I do highly recommend the Dwarvenite Tiles though, they are durable and no fuss, one can easily toss them around and just go with the flow.  That being said, their $150 three set deal is still pretty good, and even more attractive when they run specials at XMas (shipping I believe).  They also make wonderful educational toys for kids (if that helps with your justification).

Do look into DIY 2.5D Dungeon Tiles on Youtube (theDMSCraft, theDMG and others).  There are lots of cool things and ideas in the vids.  Flat 2D is soooo 80s, like gag me with a credit card and put me on layaway!

Count me as another staunch partisan of Chessex battlemats.  I've owned two of them since the 1980s, a small one and their maximum size one for varying sizes of battle.  Like just about any surface imaginable, if they get dingy I clean the damn things, and since I clean them after any session in which I use them (not doing so tends to have certain marker colors become permanent) it's not an issue.  Since I bought them in rolls, creases weren't an issue, I expect.  It's been so long ago that I have no idea.  (This being part of the point.)

I don't get why Vis-a-Vis markers (which I've used for many years) are that hard to find: I see them in every stationers.

What I also use are the paper hex sheets that SJ Games put out (and may still, for all I know).  They're good for static and recurring situations: I've got sheets set up for a range of taverns, a bridge battle, a dozen cutouts for different sizes of ships, that sort of thing.

I've got a large collection of minis, and we all love them -- in fact my wife insists on it, because she wants to see what's going on, not just presume she understands what I have in my head.  But those were obtained and painted over a course of years, and I wouldn't recommend them to someone who wants to set up a battle tomorrow.

I do use tokens for a mass horde of crunchies: I've got a lot of pewter coins from a defunct LARP that work just fine.  A stripe of paint denotes facing.

^For the Chessex mats, I heard that if you leave the marker on them for a while it stains the mat permanently. Is that true? Or can I draw up a map a week before my session and still be confident that it'll wipe away without leaving stains?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;829848^For the Chessex mats, I heard that if you leave the marker on them for a while it stains the mat permanently. Is that true? Or can I draw up a map a week before my session and still be confident that it'll wipe away without leaving stains?

This is more or less true.  You don't want to leave marks on it for a week.  

I'd say it's safe to leave the marker on it for 48 hours, though.  Beyond that, you probably want to go ahead and wipe it down.

I just use lots of DDM, and either Dwarven Forge (when I've time), and most often a Paizo map for drawing on. I also have a 6 pack of play-doh colors for the occasional odd item that needs to be on the board.

Quote from: Gabriel2;829852This is more or less true.  You don't want to leave marks on it for a week.  

I'd say it's safe to leave the marker on it for 48 hours, though.  Beyond that, you probably want to go ahead and wipe it down.

Are there any maps that don't have that problem? I want to draw ahead of time when I have a chance.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;829886Are there any maps that don't have that problem? I want to draw ahead of time when I have a chance.

I use graph paper on a roll (https://www.google.com/#q=large+rolls+of+graph+paper&tbm=shop) for that. I did a full scale throne room for a Hutt Crime Lord's palace for Star Wars. I got to use it twice and I still have it should I run any PCs there in the future.

Quote from: Gabriel2;829852This is more or less true.  You don't want to leave marks on it for a week.  

I'd say it's safe to leave the marker on it for 48 hours, though.  Beyond that, you probably want to go ahead and wipe it down.

Certain colors aren't safe for that.  I find that purple, red and black have unusual staying power.

Quote from: Bren;829889I use graph paper on a roll (https://www.google.com/#q=large+rolls+of+graph+paper&tbm=shop) for that. I did a full scale throne room for a Hutt Crime Lord's palace for Star Wars. I got to use it twice and I still have it should I run any PCs there in the future.

That was something I considered. But it's super thin; does it stay on the table right during the game? I would worry that it moves and knock down all the pieces easily.

I use Dwarven Forge and an assortment of Reaper, Ral Partha, Grenadier and recently Otherworld and Dark Sword miniatures.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;829886Are there any maps that don't have that problem? I want to draw ahead of time when I have a chance.

I'd say Tact-Tiles. They were originally available during the D20 boom, but there was a recent Kickstarter to reproduce them. They are hard, plastic, gridded, interlocking, dry-erase tiles. People I've known who owned them from the original production run rave about them. See here: Tact-Tiles Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/804836187/tact-tiles-modular-wet-and-dry-erase-gaming-surfac)

Quote from: Bren;829889I use graph paper on a roll (https://www.google.com/#q=large+rolls+of+graph+paper&tbm=shop) for that. I did a full scale throne room for a Hutt Crime Lord's palace for Star Wars. I got to use it twice and I still have it should I run any PCs there in the future.

There used to be someplace that sold laminated versions of that.  The main problem was trying to get it to lay flat again after rolling it up.  I don't know, maybe you could find someplace to laminate a big sheet of that nowadays.  That would solve the wipe problem.  

As for battlemats, wiping them off fairly soon after use is just something you have to accept with them.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;829896That was something I considered. But it's super thin; does it stay on the table right during the game? I would worry that it moves and knock down all the pieces easily.

Quote from: Gabriel2;829954There used to be someplace that sold laminated versions of that.  The main problem was trying to get it to lay flat again after rolling it up.

Weight down the corners or edges and the paper lays flat just fine. If you have the space available, lay it out ahead of time and put books on it to flatten it out some before play. You'll still need to weight down the corners though.

To be clear, I use the paper when I want to create something for reuse. I did that in Star Wars for the Hutt's Palace and for a really big, bar: Gazi's* -- The place with something for everyone. Several group of PCs went there on different occasions. One group was actually there at the same time as another group. So the antics of the first group formed a backdrop to the actions of the second
group.


* Since I happened to see my brief writeup of Gazi's (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=829965#post829965) I'll stick that in a new thread in case anyone finds it interesting.

I've got a Chessex battlemat, and an assortment of fantasy, scifi, and horror minis. The fantasy and horror minis are generally 25-28mm, while I typically use 15mm for running Traveller.

Lately I've been collecting Arkham Horror prepaints, as well as Copplestone Casting and Artizan Designs 1920s minis.

Quote from: Ravenswing;829893Certain colors aren't safe for that.  I find that purple, red and black have unusual staying power.

I've had the most issue with red or orange wet erase leaving stains that are tough to get out. Other colors, like black, green, or blue seem to be more forgiving.

Nowadays, I wipe the matt down after every game session to rule out the risk of staining. And, if we end the session before the 'battle' is done, we take a quick smartphone photo of the 'battlefield' and redraw it at the beginning of the next session.

Quote from: Gabriel2;829954There used to be someplace that sold laminated versions of that.  The main problem was trying to get it to lay flat again after rolling it up.  I don't know, maybe you could find someplace to laminate a big sheet of that nowadays.  That would solve the wipe problem.  

As for battlemats, wiping them off fairly soon after use is just something you have to accept with them.

I have dry erase battlemats from Role 4 Initiative, basically laminated 36" x 24" gridded paper. I keep them rolled up in 3" diameter poster tubes, alternating between rolling lengthwise and widthwise, and between which side I leave inside/outside. I've had no problems whatsoever with flatness. To prevent the mats getting moved around during a session, I scotch-tape them to my shitty table. I' mature I could find a gentler adhesive, but whatever.

Ghost lines sometimes remain after erasing, but rubbing alcohol takes care of those without damaging the surface; as far as I can tell there's no time limit for erasing those.

I picked up a couple of the 24x36 Chessex battlemats last year when I decided to pick up gaming again. We use miniatures that I or my friends bring, one of which I hooked on painting so it is primarily his stuff that we use to avoid issues with theater of the mind not always being clear.

I sometimes leave the dry erase on between sessions, up to a few weeks, and haven't had the ink stick yet although I've seen it happen before as I'm just not that worried about some light stains.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;829886Are there any maps that don't have that problem? I want to draw ahead of time when I have a chance.

With Paizo flipmats you draw on them with dry-erase marker. You can erase week-old marks ok (unless maybe you had left the maps sitting out unfolded all week - just folding them up helps a lot). After a couple weeks much of the solvent will have evaporated, unless you kept them in an airtight bag. If that happens you just mark over the old pen marks with new dry-erase ink - ie applying more solvent - then wipe off. If you missed a bit the solvent accrued on your cloth will still catch it.

Quote from: K Peterson;829971And, if we end the session before the 'battle' is done, we take a quick smartphone photo of the 'battlefield' and redraw it at the beginning of the next session.

Oh, now, that's a smart trick; thank you, I'll have to remember that.  The times I've had to do it, I've spent a laborious 15-20 post-session minutes (with me being wiped out and really not wanting to spend more time thinking about the game) sketching everything out.

On those rare occasions I've needed representations, I think I've just used a chessboard as a floormap.