This is a larger question than what we are talking about in the other RQ threads, so I'm going to ask it in a separate thread.

If I look at AD&D First Ed, for instance, I see a bunch of components and advice that basically gear towards providing the tools to play certain types of games, with an underlying implied setting, and specific tasks for the PCs. For instance, we have character levels, with most of the population of the world being level 0, which means that characters, if they survive their first few levels, have a shot at becoming outstanding individuals in the campaign. The level limitations imply a world that is focused on human characters. Stuff like opening doors and bend bars imply the exploration of places that include those elements, which leads us to the emphasis on the dungeon and the wilderness as places of adventure, and so on.

What is RuneQuest designed to help you run? What are the underlying concepts behind the game, what type of setting does it imply, throughout its variants, and are there critical differences between these variants? It seems to me, for instance, that the d100 roll-under principle emphasizes a certain "scale of normality", a human scale for the inhabitants of the world, where either you fall below the normality and don't have a skill to speak of, or have well beyond 100% in said skill and then have a set of specific corner rules applying to you: you're beyond the scope of 'normality' in the RQ game world, in other words. The different types of cultures and professions imply a culturally diverse world, where different origins and traditions do matter in shaping your character from the start of the game. Same with the different types of magic, which point towards different metaphysical ways of making sense of the world and its cosmology. And yet, there is this potential to reach beyond, into the mythical realm of things, via the Rune Quests themselves. Normal individuals becoming heroes in the classical sense of the term.

Am I reading this right? Do you think there is more to it than that? What is your own reading of the world and campaigns the RuneQuest toolbox helps you run? How do you read the intent and implied setting behind all this? I'm interested in your POV.

Quote from: Benoist;458167This is a larger question than what we are talking about in the other RQ threads, so I'm going to ask it in a separate thread.

If I look at AD&D First Ed, for instance, I see a bunch of components and advice that basically gear towards providing the tools to play certain types of games, with an underlying implied setting, and specific tasks for the PCs. For instance, we have character levels, with most of the population of the world being level 0, which means that characters, if they survive their first few levels, have a shot at becoming outstanding individuals in the campaign. The level limitations imply a world that is focused on human characters. Stuff like opening doors and bend bars imply the exploration of places that include those elements, which leads us to the emphasis on the dungeon and the wilderness as places of adventure, and so on.

What is RuneQuest designed to help you run? What are the underlying concepts behind the game, what type of setting does it imply, throughout its variants, and are there critical differences between these variants? It seems to me, for instance, that the d100 roll-under principle emphasizes a certain "scale of normality", a human scale for the inhabitants of the world, where either you fall below the normality and don't have a skill to speak of, or have well beyond 100% in said skill and then have a set of specific corner rules applying to you: you're beyond the scope of 'normality' in the RQ game world, in other words. The different types of cultures and professions imply a culturally diverse world, where different origins and traditions do matter in shaping your character from the start of the game. Same with the different types of magic, which point towards different metaphysical ways of making sense of the world and its cosmology. And yet, there is this potential to reach beyond, into the mythical realm of things, via the Rune Quests themselves. Normal individuals becoming heroes in the classical sense of the term.

Am I reading this right? Do you think there is more to it than that? What is your own reading of the world and campaigns the RuneQuest toolbox helps you run? How do you read the intent and implied setting behind all this? I'm interested in your POV.

No, I think you are grasping and relating some of the fundamental facts about what game design.  (I think you're a little of with AD&D, btw, in that it is a little more campaign oriented, but that's my opinoin)

I think it is also important to look at the lethality level and growth curves of Runquest in looking at the type of game it is built for.

I agree about the professions and the nod to a culturally diverse world.  What would you say the spell choices available say?

I think it is best suited to bathhouse drama.

Quote from: LordVreeg;458168(I think you're a little of with AD&D, btw, in that it is a little more campaign oriented, but that's my opinoin)

I agree that AD&D is campaign-oriented, by the simple fact that you don't reach level 20 in a single session, by its XP rates and so on. The paragraph wasn't meant to be exhaustive, far from it.

Quote from: LordVreeg;458168I think it is also important to look at the lethality level and growth curves of Runquest in looking at the type of game it is built for.

I agree. When you look at the combat rules and their relative detail, and yet at the fact that combats themselves are much more likely to be lethal for the PCs than some other fantasy RPGs, you get a sense that combats matter, that they're important events in the game that deserve the detail they get, but that, at the same time, the game is not supposed to be made of a succession of little fights, one after the other. It's more that there is one fight once in a while, and when it happens, it's supposed to be dangerous, meaningful, and potentially lethal for the PCs.

Quote from: LordVreeg;458168I agree about the professions and the nod to a culturally diverse world.  What would you say the spell choices available say?

The separation in types of magic is telling IMO. The existence of Common Magic means that the world is thoroughly magical, that magic itself is, by default, a very pervasive force in the world. Divine magic and Spirit Magic at least reinforce the earlier points about culture and origins, in that dedication to gods/religion, and/or the communication with the higher worlds and spirits that inhabit them do matter as well. All these things participate to a kind of classical, mythological feel of a culturally diverse world (it's no wonder that Glorantha took the form it did looking at this, but I also think that Glorantha is just one way to look at a practical interpretation of these principles, not the 'only' way to look at them). Sorcery is more reminiscent of the shapers of forms and occult forces, a bit like the hermetic traditions or Merlin or these kinds of 'practioners of the art'.

The spells themselves seem to reflect what I was talking about earlier: there are many combat spells yes, and regeneration spells and the like but there are also many spells that help you interact with NPCs (golden tongue, understanding, dominate and the like), or explore areas you would not otherwise (teleport, breathe under water, this type of stuff), deal with the environment (bless crops, clear skies, rain), craft things... the spectrum of spells is standard for fantasy RPGs in many ways, but at the same time I get the vibe that the PCs are supposed to be part of the world, that the basic idea is that they are members of their communities and that they help the village/clan/city to get rid of various sorts of plights from draughts to humanoids pillaging the area to gods and spirits cursing the crops or the babies until they fulfill some kind of oath or bargain struck in the past... you know, that kind of thing.

What I get is a very pre-medieval, antiquity feel to it all. I don't know how my outlook on this is biased by the fact I know about Glorantha in the first place, but looking at the core rule book without thinking of Glorantha per se, there's really a feel of Classical Antiquity that's pervasive throughout the design. I wonder if that was a conscious choice or not, or if it's just me who's looking at this and seeing stuff that wasn't intended in the first place.

I think the classical feel is definitely there, and you're right it's by design.  As a system specifically written to do Glorantha, it is perfect for that setting, with it's high-magic, mythological feel.  It's also why similar settings such as Elric work well with the system.

Runequest supports high magic, but not necessarily high fantasy, as the game in all its forms is very deadly when compared to other fantasy games.  I don't think RQ lends itself well to pulp games, where the heroes wade in where angels fear to tread.  It's this very gritty, deadly feel similar to medieval games like Harn, or C&S, combined with high levels of magic that really make RQ stand out.  Magic is somehow omnipresent without being omnipotent.

These same elements also make it a good system for Sword & Sorcery, although a toning down of available magic would be necessary for most S&S settings, making the game even deadlier.

Quote from: Benoist;458167This is a larger question than what we are talking about in the other RQ threads, so I'm going to ask it in a separate thread.

An interesting question. Are we just talking RuneQuest or are we talking BRP as well? BRP is a closely-related system that shares many of the proerties of RQ.

Also, are we talking the recent version of RQ or are we talking RQ in general, in all its variants?

Quote from: Benoist;458167If I look at AD&D First Ed, for instance, I see a bunch of components and advice that basically gear towards providing the tools to play certain types of games, with an underlying implied setting, and specific tasks for the PCs. For instance, we have character levels, with most of the population of the world being level 0, which means that characters, if they survive their first few levels, have a shot at becoming outstanding individuals in the campaign. The level limitations imply a world that is focused on human characters. Stuff like opening doors and bend bars imply the exploration of places that include those elements, which leads us to the emphasis on the dungeon and the wilderness as places of adventure, and so on.

That sounds right, to a certain extent and helps explain what kind of thing you are asking.

Quote from: Benoist;458167What is RuneQuest designed to help you run? What are the underlying concepts behind the game, what type of setting does it imply, throughout its variants, and are there critical differences between these variants?

Anyone can do anything. That seems to me to be the primary aim of RQ.

So, at a basic level, a wizard can dress in armour, a thief can use a staff and a soldier can use magic. That is a fundamental principle.

Quote from: Benoist;458167It seems to me, for instance, that the d100 roll-under principle emphasizes a certain "scale of normality", a human scale for the inhabitants of the world, where either you fall below the normality and don't have a skill to speak of, or have well beyond 100% in said skill and then have a set of specific corner rules applying to you: you're beyond the scope of 'normality' in the RQ game world, in other words.

The skill resolution system means that there is definitely a scale of what can normally be done. So, if you have a low skill then you need to take longer to do something or have a higher chance of failure.

Having a very high skill means that you are more likely to succeed, even with difficult tasks. There is nothing mystical about having a skill above 100%, it simply means that you are more likely to succeed at difficult tasks that someone who doesn't have a high skill.

Skills are not restricted to certain types of character or certain professions, by and large. So, a wizard could pick locks and a fighter can climb walls. There are skills that everyone is expected to have and skills that are normally found in certain professions, but even they can be taught to other people. Certain cults have special skills that they don't teach to non-cult members, but again if a non-cult member learns such a cult skill then he can use it.

This causes a large level of equality. It also means that many people become skilled in many areas, so everyone becomes a Jack of All Trades.

Quote from: Benoist;458167The different types of cultures and professions imply a culturally diverse world, where different origins and traditions do matter in shaping your character from the start of the game.

Yes, absolutely. It also means that non-humans can be played as easily as humans. Want to play a troll healer or a dwarven wizard? fine. How about a centaur shaman, a minotaur sex slave? No problem.

All you need is a background/culture and a list of professions. If they don't exist then the players/GMs can get together and write them up.

Another thing to remember is that a culture/background and a profession describes both what you were and what you are. It doesn't describe what you could be or what you are going to be. If I roll up a human Saxon warrior it describes what I am but doesn't restrict me - I could learn Latin and become a priest or I could marry a Celtic woman and become a shopkeeper in Camelot, for example.

Quote from: Benoist;458167Same with the different types of magic, which point towards different metaphysical ways of making sense of the world and its cosmology.

Yes.

Also, religions are culturally sensitive and usually species-sensitive as well.

So, if I am a Saxon then I would normally worship a Germanic deity or be a Christian, if I played a Gloranthan elf then I could perhaps worship Aldrya, Flamal or Yelmalio. However, there is no reason why a Saxon couldn't worship a Celtic deity, depending on his back story.

In RQ, religions grant access to different spells. So, a healer deity has healing spells, a warrior deity has combat spells and a sage deity has knowledge spells. In Glorantha, Malkioni have a religion that teaches sorcery and various Animists have spirits that teach Shamanism, so a religion can teach many different types of magic.

RQ also has magic schools and societies that teach other spells and magic types.

Different settings have different types of magic and have different ways of learning and using magic. So, magic in Glorantha is easily available and can be learned from cults, magic schools or just from the local clan. In Stormbringer/Elric, magic can be gained from worshipping the Gods and Principles of Chaos and Law. In Medieval Europe, Christianity, Islam and Judaism provide Blessings that are specific to their religions. In the Dark Ages, there are many cults that teach special magic depending on their function as well as Christianity. There are very many combinations and ways of doing this.

RuneQuest is a very flexible system.

Quote from: Benoist;458167And yet, there is this potential to reach beyond, into the mythical realm of things, via the Rune Quests themselves. Normal individuals becoming heroes in the classical sense of the term.

This happens in Glorantha more than in other settings. There are ways to use the powers of the Gods in the real world or to travel to supernatural realms. However, this is setting dependent.

In a medieval game, the PCs might be able to travel to Fair Elf Land or to Heaven/Hell/Purgatory. In a Dark Ages game, they might be able to travel to the Blessed Lands, the Nine Kingdoms of Germanic legend or to Heaven/Hell/Purgatory. In an Ancient Greece game they could go to Olympus or Hades. However, these are very much a case of travelling there for specific one-off purpose rather than using tried and tested techniques.

Quote from: Benoist;458167Am I reading this right? Do you think there is more to it than that? What is your own reading of the world and campaigns the RuneQuest toolbox helps you run? How do you read the intent and implied setting behind all this? I'm interested in your POV.

I think there is more than that.

RQ is as much about saying "You can do that" as anything else. I once remember seeing an episode of "Tucker's Luck" where Tucker plays D&D and says that his fighter would headbutt (or "Nut") an opponent for the DM to say
that he can't do that. In RQ he could.

Much of the flavour of RQ is in its settings. Glorantha is a very deep, rich and varied setting with a lot of information. The Eternal Champion settings are not as fleshed out, but capture the feel of Moorcock's books. Lankhmar is a very basic swords and sorcery setting. Deus Vult, Stupor Mundi and Merrie England have limited magic but rich cultures and have the advantage that anyone with Wikipedia can create backgrounds and scenarios.

RuneQuest's biggest strengths for me are:
1. The same skill system can be used for a Stone Age Clan of the Cave Bear setting as a futuristic Star Wars setting (people still have to climb walls, talk people around or hit people with things)
2. Characters are as strong as themselves. They don't get huge boosts for being skilled, which makes them vulnerable.
3. The cults and religions system is very adaptable and can be used in many different settings and genres, with each having a different interpretation and different spells/types of magic.
4. Extra rules can be strapped on very easily - skills are all treated the same, Psionics can be treated as magic or as skills themselves
5. Equipment is very easy to use - weapons can be scaled to the technology very easily and it is very easy to write up stats for weapons and armour.
6. Professions can be written up very easily, so that a character idea can be very easily used by inventing a new profession
7. Above all, RuneQuest is a very flexible system

Quote from: soltakss;458177An interesting question. Are we just talking RuneQuest or are we talking BRP as well? BRP is a closely-related system that shares many of the proerties of RQ.

Also, are we talking the recent version of RQ or are we talking RQ in general, in all its variants?

I was thinking more of Mongoose's RuneQuest II when writing my thoughts on this, but I'd be curious to see how you'd interpret the differences between versions of RQ and the wider BRP, and how that affects each particular game's basic premise, in your opinion.

MRQII doesn't have that many settings, so the evidence would be very limited as to what kinds of game it supports.

Glorantha - Magic-rich game with many different cultures, races and settings

Eternal Champion - Dark Fantasy (Elric) or SciFi-Fantasy (Hawkmoon) with interaction with Gods

Clockwork and Chivalry - Low-magic real world adventuring in the English Civil War

Deus Vult - Low-magic real world medieval adventuring

Samurai - Low-magic real world adventuring in Nippon

Vikings - Low magic real world adventuring in the lands of the Vikings

But if you look at older versions of RQ or BRP, you can see that settings range from classical Greece to various fantasy settings to horror games to SciFi games to Super Heroes. All use the same basic skill system but have extra rules detailing how much magic, if any, is available, what technology and equipment is available, what the different cultures/backgrounds/professions have and what species/races are available as PCs.

Do they all work? Not always. I didn't think that Super World worked particularly well, but other people disagree.

I think that RQ can cope well with High fantasy or with Heroic Fantasy. I've played in games where the PCs have run through crowds of soldiers, "Water Margin"-style or "13 Assassins"-style, slaughtering hundreds.

One of the important things about a RQ game is that you can play anyone. You are not restricted to fighters, healers, clerics or so on. Want to play an accountant? No problem. Courtesan, Techno-Shaman, Ballet Dancer - sure. Although RQ is combat-oriented to some extent, combat is not the be-all and end-all. In fact, social interaction or use of skills is often as important, or more important, than combat.

Quote from: CRKrueger;458175I think the classical feel is definitely there, and you're right it's by design.  As a system specifically written to do Glorantha, it is perfect for that setting, with it's high-magic, mythological feel.  It's also why similar settings such as Elric work well with the system.

Yes, I can see how that could participate to the "antique" feel of the Young Kingdoms.

Quote from: CRKrueger;458175Runequest supports high magic, but not necessarily high fantasy, as the game in all its forms is very deadly when compared to other fantasy games.  I don't think RQ lends itself well to pulp games, where the heroes wade in where angels fear to tread.  It's this very gritty, deadly feel similar to medieval games like Harn, or C&S, combined with high levels of magic that really make RQ stand out.  Magic is somehow omnipresent without being omnipotent.

I think that's an important distinction, that while there is a pervasive magical feel to the world(s) of RuneQuest, there is also this human scale going on, so that there are impossible things going on, that there might be huge bangs and great adventures to be had, but that the characters remain mostly 'human-scaled' (whether they are human per se or not) when confronted to them. It's in part what makes me feel that indeed, if I was to run a Vikings game with strong mythological Ragnarok elements to it, it'd feel great to use the RQ rules system, because it'd give this sort of gritty reality feel to it, while at the same time being able to bring in giants and Fenrir and all sorts of purely mythological stuff to the table.

Quote from: CRKrueger;458175These same elements also make it a good system for Sword & Sorcery, although a toning down of available magic would be necessary for most S&S settings, making the game even deadlier.

Isn't it in part what's going on with Elric of Melniboné ? There is no Common Magic available to the characters, is there ? That should participate to this kind of feel in the Young Kingdoms, I imagine.

Those are some excellent comments and insights, Simon.

Quote from: soltakss;458177In Medieval Europe, Christianity, Islam and Judaism provide Blessings that are specific to their religions. In the Dark Ages, there are many cults that teach special magic depending on their function as well as Christianity.

Which BRP/RQ versions use this "Blessings" system?--since I don't think I've seen it yet. Also, the only Dark Ages BRP-family game I know well is RQ3 (AH) but I don't remember it offering much in the way of cults, let alone details of Christianity. So I'm also curious which versions you're referring to in that sentence.

There's a Blessing divine magic spell that adds its magnitude times five to any cult skill. So if Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have different cult skills, then blessing things would vary from religion to religion.

Fantasy Catholicism comes in Deus Vult, if you want a low magic version, or my partially-complete Moragne religion write-up has a more high magic treatment.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;458192Those are some excellent comments and insights, Simon.

Thanks - if there's one game system I know inside out (or used to) it's RuneQuest.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;458192Which BRP/RQ versions use this "Blessings" system?--since I don't think I've seen it yet.

Stupor Mundi/Merrie England (Published by Alephtar Games) used Blessings for RuneQuest. Merrie England has been ported to BRP now, as Alephtar Games' RQ Licence was not renewed, but the RQ version still applies.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;458192Also, the only Dark Ages BRP-family game I know well is RQ3 (AH) but I don't remember it offering much in the way of cults, let alone details of Christianity. So I'm also curious which versions you're referring to in that sentence.

They were just examples of a kind of game that would suit RuneQuest, or BRP. I have been toying with a Dark Ages BRP supplement for some time, but don't know when I'll be able to write it.

Quote from: Benoist;458167What is RuneQuest designed to help you run?

Anything you want as long as you want it gritty, verisimil and with a medium level of detail rules-wise, and really detailed setting-wise.

QuoteWhat are the underlying concepts behind the game, what type of setting does it imply, throughout its variants, and are there critical differences between these variants?

You can do magic, and magic is a very important part of the world. Your tribe is very important and your culture matters a lot. Anyone can kill you with a lucky blow, no matter if you re a RuneLord. Be careful, be brave, and the gods/spirits will be with you.

QuoteAm I reading this right? Do you think there is more to it than that? What is your own reading of the world and campaigns the RuneQuest toolbox helps you run? How do you read the intent and implied setting behind all this? I'm interested in your POV.

I think that the thing that caught me the most when I met RQ for the first time was that it seemed at the time a very brave game to play. You are no longer sheltered from harm by massive amounts of hitpoints. An impaling arrow could drop you dead, or maim you. You could lose limbs. Magic is no longer the province of gandalf-like sorcerers or bland pseudochristians: magic is shamanic, barbaric, creepy. Cultures are no longer some pseudomedieval pastiche: they're weird, exotic, fantastic.

I've always said that RQ is a game for manly men I've met more than one D&D (or other fantasy games) player that would be amazed by how hard the game can be. It's similar to what happens with CoC, and I feel that the BRP system has a lot to do with that: no matter if you're raiding the neighbours to steal their cattle or stopping a Lunar army, everything feels heroic and real in a way no other game has ever done for me.

Well, I'm an RQ fan. What can I say.

Quote from: Benoist;458167What is RuneQuest designed to help you run?

We're running a campaign in the mesolithic (cusp of the neolithic). That magic is ubiquitous in RQ works because that's how many of the real-world stories from that era (and many others) are told. The heroes have powerful magic indeed, but even the average villager knows some wards, charms, prayers, hexes. In RQ, the villager magic is real and works.

I concur with the "you can be anything you want" sentiment mentioned by others here. There's no harm in a stone-age warrior picking up a bit of sorcery if the opportunity presents itself. Your 35% skill rating might not be real competition against a more specialized spell slinger in the heat of battle, but given enough time, to be able to levitate over the Chasm of Doom could come in really handy.

As for lethality. In our most recent session, the gang had ventured into the spirit world in search of a mythical answer to a recent plague of mutant humanoids stalking the forest. In a number of situations, such as battling a space-warping spirit messing with the myth, failed dice rolls put the characters in very serious danger. Fortunately, the system does have hero points which allow re-rolls, and peril was avoided. In in-world terms, brave actions and exciting role-play endear the characters to the powers-that-be and aid is given in future frightful situations.

For me the essential nature of RQ/BRP is that it is a bottom-up system that is built on a human scale. You have skills, characteristics and equipment and that's it. The character generation system (always has) told you about what happened in the past and its effects on your skills but who you are and what you do next is up to you.

Class/archetype systems are top-down. So to create a character like Conan in a class system you pre-select a package of abilities based on an archetype/class of barbarian and off you go. Unless something changes he'll either end up as a great barbarian legend or he'll die. In RQ you would create someone from a barbarian culture, maybe say he's been working as a mercenary or was a slave and the game starts there. Your initial plan might be to avenge the slaughter of your village but anything could happen.

The advantage of a top-down system is that it gives a quick and easy shorthand. A bottom-up system gives unlimited flexibility but at the expense of it being sometimes hard to get a handle on a character.

An analogy is lego. Back in the old days you would get a bucket of varied lego pieces and you could build whatever you want to out of the bricks. That's how RQ works. These days you usually get Lego sets that let you build a specific model. That's how archetype systems work. A Pre-constructed lego set of Luke Skywalker lets you build a beautiful Luke while your bucket of bricks might let you build something that looks a bit like Luke.

Generally RQ/BRP can be used for pretty much anything but the mindset will always be of characters developing through experience and circumstance in ways that don't always fit into archetypes.