But does that make saves, etc. too easy?

If I go that route, when/would I Want to add a CR?

Quote from: paladinn on January 03, 2024, 08:52:19 PM
But does that make saves, etc. too easy?

If I go that route, when/would I Want to add a CR?

Well, that pretty much depends on what you mean by "too easy."  Certainly in AD&D and its various clones, by the higher levels, saves are easier, but do vary by categories & classes.  The idea is that high level heroes are experienced and have earned it and/or learned how to react faster or whatever.  So the C&C way is perhaps more realistic in that it's more difficult to resist higher level foes and their spells, etc.  But also keep in mind that you're going to be much stronger against lower level foes, unlike AD&D, where that low level foe has the same chance to kill you with their death ray, wand, or whatever. 

And in the end, the best way to figure it out, is just play a couple sessions each way and see how it goes.  I don't really ever think much about "game balance."  We just play.  Sometimes things are tougher than I anticipated for the players; sometimes it's easier.  Often it seems tied to who's rolling well that night.  A year or so back I had a character blow three straight rolls leading to his death.  He had a very reasonable chance to make all of them, but his rolls sucked.  Oh well, he's now buried on a mountainside.

And Hell, you could just use the Swords & Wizardry method of the single saving throw for pretty much everything.  That's actually my favorite method.  But then you're ignoring the significance of primes.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 03, 2024, 10:34:50 PM

Quote from: paladinn on January 03, 2024, 08:52:19 PM
But does that make saves, etc. too easy?

If I go that route, when/would I Want to add a CR?

Well, that pretty much depends on what you mean by "too easy."  Certainly in AD&D and its various clones, by the higher levels, saves are easier, but do vary by categories & classes.  The idea is that high level heroes are experienced and have earned it and/or learned how to react faster or whatever.  So the C&C way is perhaps more realistic in that it's more difficult to resist higher level foes and their spells, etc.  But also keep in mind that you're going to be much stronger against lower level foes, unlike AD&D, where that low level foe has the same chance to kill you with their death ray, wand, or whatever. 

And in the end, the best way to figure it out, is just play a couple sessions each way and see how it goes.  I don't really ever think much about "game balance."  We just play.  Sometimes things are tougher than I anticipated for the players; sometimes it's easier.  Often it seems tied to who's rolling well that night.  A year or so back I had a character blow three straight rolls leading to his death.  He had a very reasonable chance to make all of them, but his rolls sucked.  Oh well, he's now buried on a mountainside.

And Hell, you could just use the Swords & Wizardry method of the single saving throw for pretty much everything.  That's actually my favorite method.  But then you're ignoring the significance of primes.

I guess that answers another of my puzzlements.  I like the idea of the S&W single-save; but I can see that it becomes unusable with any of the other save models.  Unless I just use the single-save, add ability mod and my +3 Prime bonus, if applicable.  Hmmm.. pondering

Moved to other thread

Quote from: Persimmon on January 03, 2024, 10:34:50 PM
...unlike AD&D, where that low level foe has the same chance to kill you with their death ray, wand, or whatever...

Really a tangent of little import, but "death ray" isn't actually an AD&D saving throw category, it's an original D&D category that came from the description of the Finger of Death spell. In AD&D the category is "paralyzation, poison, or death magic."

Quote
And Hell, you could just use the Swords & Wizardry method of the single saving throw for pretty much everything.  That's actually my favorite method.  But then you're ignoring the significance of primes.

I'd consider that a benefit. In my opinion, one of the great strengths of a class/level game system is its class/level nature. I tend to dislike rules that dilute the importance of class/level and enhance the importance of stats. I'd even say core AD&D, itself, took a step too far in that direction (following the path blazed by original D&D's Greyhawk supplement.)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on January 04, 2024, 01:36:59 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 03, 2024, 10:34:50 PM
...unlike AD&D, where that low level foe has the same chance to kill you with their death ray, wand, or whatever...

Really a tangent of little import, but "death ray" isn't actually an AD&D saving throw category, it's an original D&D category that came from the description of the Finger of Death spell. In AD&D the category is "paralyzation, poison, or death magic."

Quote
And Hell, you could just use the Swords & Wizardry method of the single saving throw for pretty much everything.  That's actually my favorite method.  But then you're ignoring the significance of primes.

I'd consider that a benefit. In my opinion, one of the great strengths of a class/level game system is its class/level nature. I tend to dislike rules that dilute the importance of class/level and enhance the importance of stats. I'd even say core AD&D, itself, took a step too far in that direction (following the path blazed by original D&D's Greyhawk supplement.)

Concerning class and level, that's part of the issue, however.  Shouldn't it be harder to resist the magic of a 15th level wizard versus a 5th level wizard?  On the one hand, of course, the former has access to far more powerful spells, so the chance of you being killed by him in combat is probably much greater anyhow, but the save is one sided in being tied only to your level.  In other games, like MERP, resistance rolls scale by level so higher level characters much more easily resist lower level effects and vice versa.  C&C basically merges the two systems by using level plus prime.

Personally, I can appreciate the merits of both.  I like the continued danger involved in the C&C system.  But the streamlined simplicity of S&W makes for very fast and easy play with minimal calculations.  So it does come down to what your group prefers. 

Quote from: Persimmon on January 04, 2024, 08:59:29 AM
Concerning class and level, that's part of the issue, however.  Shouldn't it be harder to resist the magic of a 15th level wizard versus a 5th level wizard?  On the one hand, of course, the former has access to far more powerful spells, so the chance of you being killed by him in combat is probably much greater anyhow, but the save is one sided in being tied only to your level.  In other games, like MERP, resistance rolls scale by level so higher level characters much more easily resist lower level effects and vice versa.  C&C basically merges the two systems by using level plus prime.

Personally, I can appreciate the merits of both.  I like the continued danger involved in the C&C system.  But the streamlined simplicity of S&W makes for very fast and easy play with minimal calculations.  So it does come down to what your group prefers.

It's ultimately a preference, but it is a preference with side effects.  So when considering what the group prefers, the side effects need to be considered as well.  I would argue (possibly showing my bias) that having higher level casters harder to resist does seem logical on the surface, and it could be.  However, doing it the other way leads to more interesting game play.  I'll always take the latter over the former when in conflict.

Though I'm also one of those people who absolutely loathes automatic scaling of opponents in video games.  The original Elder Scrolls Oblivion was almost unplayable to me over this issue.  I really don't like the treadmill feel.  In a table top game, I don't like what it does to the players.  I don't want them pressing on with the current thing no matter what, because it will just be harder when they come back.  I want there to be things they can't handle now that are trivial later.  Having saves that get steadily better with level while the attacks largely do not sends a firm signal that the character is off the treadmill.  There's plenty of other ways in which the challenges do grow (such as tougher monsters or higher level spells from higher level casters). 

The other aspect that I was slower to appreciate is how much the AD&D-style saves contributes to the relative worth of the fighter.  The caster is getting earth-shaking magic, and is capable of taking out hordes of weaker opponents, but taking on the really tough creatures becomes a crap shoot. 

On the back-handed compliment side of things, it is much more difficult to get the math correct in the game model with everything scaling.  So having a few things not scale, such as saving throws, gives the design team more room to make mistakes that won't kill the game flow.  Sure, if you can get the scaling perfect, then you've kind of got the best of both worlds.  But it's swinging for the fences, you either win or lose.

I did a video review on this on youtube.

https://youtu.be/y2BUXyOVoIg?si=o4DrDWUPMAQ0i18T

Basically, I like it as an alternative to 1st and 2nd Ed DnD.  It has some nice streamlining mechanics and they even made the illusionist not suck.