Quote from: Bren;1027154Thanks for clarifying.

Intellectually I can understand the idea, but aesthetically and emotionally I don't get the appeal.* One of the advantages of most point-based systems is that they are both more versatile and more granular than level-based systems. The down side tends to be the front end complexity of fiddling with buying stuff with the points. What they wanted to do sounds like the worst of both systems rather than the best of both. To me, that is.

* I could see how in the early days of RPGs that method might be appealing as a way of designing computer-based RPGs.

Now, it sounds like the worst of both worlds to me, too.  There was a time--about 4-5 years before I'd ever heard of such a thing--where I would have enjoyed that immensely, as the best of both worlds.  Though I think the only way that really clicks is if you have several people in the group that think the same way and want to collaborate, but then deliberately want something relatively simple to use once play starts.  That's not a very common set of circumstances.  The GM doing all of that work by themselves is the epitome of pointless.

At heart, it is just a more formalized way of "making up stuff you find fun".  in D&D that might be something like, "Hey, I want to play a court jester.  So we throw together a jester class, try it out, and tweak as need as we go."  In the more formal version, it is more like, "Hey, we all kind of agree that we want these types of characters in the game, with very particular limits.  We want all that set using some common rules."  After all, in a point-buy system, the group already has to come to some kind of agreement on point totals, amounts that can be spent in certain categories, maximum attack bonuses, etc.  

Nor does it need to be a pure method, either.  If I recall correctly, the version that I heard about left some small amount of points for minor customization on skills.  You have your "warrior class" in Hero with its range of abilities, attacks, defenses, etc. that are set.  Then you pick from a few typical skills.  Then you use those last few points to get the oddball things you want.  If I'm doing an old school dungeon crawl, with characters dying left and right, that's a way to get replacement character generation down under 15 minutes, but use the system that the people at the table want to use.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1027223If I'm doing an old school dungeon crawl, with characters dying left and right, that's a way to get replacement character generation down under 15 minutes, but use the system that the people at the table want to use.

And not just replacement characters. Experience tells me that there are a lot of players who aren't interested in spending much more than 15 minutes statting up a new character. One of the things I like about WEG D6 Star Wars is the templates. Under the hood, D6 is a point buy system, but the Brash Pilot, Failed Jedi, Bounty Hunter, Smuggler...templates allow everyone to skip over agonizing over point by point expenditure so character creation can be faster.

Quote from: ffilz;1026664No choices at all? For D&D (or OSR clones) do you use tables to randomize race and class decisions?

Well, actually, in Lion & Dragon you can choose your class. Ability Scores and social class are random.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027761Well, actually, in Lion & Dragon you can choose your class.

The player gets to decide what his character's background was? You are such the story gamer.

Quote from: Bren;1027114Hmmm....I suppose that might be true.

No, it's not true, and I'm pretty sure you know it:).

Either way, it pays to remember that "understanding why people like it" does not automatically equate to "the player liking it him/herself". So you might explain it, and the player, while understanding your arguments, might still find the idea about as fun as a vegan who's been offered steak, after receiving an explanation of the nutrient qualities of meat.

Quote from: Bren;1027774The player gets to decide what his character's background was? You are such the story gamer.

Let's be fair to Pundy, Bren. In his game, you only get to pick a class you wanted if you rolled a 9+ in the controlling attribute, so it's still random to a degree;)!
Granted, he didn't explain that part, but it's true nonetheless.

You also get to pick gender and, to a degree, race. (At least one of the classes seems like it's named after a group from a different race to the rest of the setting's inhabitants, if I'm getting his sources of inspiration right. Then again, you can be a child from a different race who was brought up with said race!)
And, gasp, you get to pick equipment, within starting funds:D!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1026970It's not quite that extreme, but 'here's pile of pre-gens, pick a sheet, any sheet' is effectively pretty close to this.

Quote from: Bren;1026972That's a good method for one-shots and convention slots.

Because I run my own games at conventions, Fractured Kingdom, and Metahumans Rising, typically I do something like ask people what roles they like to fill. For Fractured Kingdom, someone tells me they prefer to be the sneaky rogue, I toss them a pre-gen and say you're a half feral child, if it's they play wizards, here's your pompous artist. Of course, this half feral child can turn into a rat, and can virtually disappear in a fight, while the artist can craft illusions of anything, that can interact with world, I don't tell them that up front because both games do not use classes and I want them to get a feel for their character. Metahumans Rising is a superhero game so things get even weirder, I like monks, I like rangers. Here's your lawyer, and park ranger... ex-super solider and master archer respectively. When someone says they play anything, I pass out the characters for people who know what niche they want to fill then go with random selection of what's left.

This has almost always worked out well, and generally gets a laugh. Weirdly, the issues I've had with this are generally around character gender, and not wanting to play a different gender. What's interesting is seeing how people adapt to these characters. Generally, people don't know the system so I encourage people to simply tell me what they want to do, instead of trying to figure out if they can do it. That, I think, is part of the fun of con games. (Also, why I try to hunt down at least one game I haven't played when I go to a con.)

Quote from: Bren;1027774The player gets to decide what his character's background was? You are such the story gamer.

Well, no, actually. He doesn't get to pick which social class he was born into. He also doesn't get to decide his prior event, or background skill. His family (if you're using those rules) is also randomly rolled. Even his name is rolled (unless the GM rules otherwise).

The only thing he gets to pick is what career he gets into. Which makes sense, because we do that in real life too.

Quote from: AsenRG;1027813Let's be fair to Pundy, Bren. In his game, you only get to pick a class you wanted if you rolled a 9+ in the controlling attribute, so it's still random to a degree;)!
Granted, he didn't explain that part, but it's true nonetheless.

True. If you don't have a high enough basic level of talent, you can't get into certain careers even if you'd like to. That's also like in the real world.

QuoteAnd, gasp, you get to pick equipment, within starting funds:D!

You actually start with equipment, in terms of what arms and armor you have. You get a tiny bit of spending money. And in some cases you might be able to use some of that money to pay for a better class of armor.

I have to ask, Pundit, "how often have you been on the player side of the screen when using this its all random pitch?"

Because it sounds way better from the perspective of "I want to see how random characters interact with my oh-so-cool/authentic campaign world" than from the player side of "you're going to be handed a random pile* that you don't even get to name yourself."

From the player side it sounds like a near perfect avenue to ensure that players would not be able to care less about either their ostensible avatars or the campaign world they inhabit. I don't know of a single player in my area who would willingly play in a campaign with that premise. The players I know game either to escape real life and/or to experience the life of a character they care about, not play out a simulacrum of real life where you have just as little control only set in a different time period (that's what the SCA is for).

Unless I have some real degree on input into what is essentially my avatar in the campaign world then I don't give a damn about how awesome that world might be, because I'm not invested in random piles handed to me. I'm invested in things I've created myself, even if the pool of resources used to do so is limited, because its my creation and an expression of what I value and care about exploring in the campaign world (I choose point buy or array stats over rolling, even if the array/point buy would result in lower scores than an average batch of rolled scores would).

"You're going to have everything about the character you're going to spend hours upon hours playing this game with, even their name, determined by random dice rolls" is legitimately the absolute least appealing game pitch I've ever encountered in my thirty plus years of roleplaying. Picking something to watch on Netflix holds more appeal to me (at least with that I'll be sure that what I choose will be something I think will be interesting... and can drop it for something else if it bores me).

* Frankly, the fact that you get to determine your sex feels a bit hypocritical to me... if your character's sex can impact the quality of roleplay and therefore needs to not be random, then why are names and social classes they could be stuck with determined by a random roll when they can play just as big a role in how well someone can get into their character's headspace?

Quote from: Chris24601;1027966* Frankly, the fact that you get to determine your sex feels a bit hypocritical to me... if your character's sex can impact the quality of roleplay and therefore needs to not be random, then why are names and social classes they could be stuck with determined by a random roll when they can play just as big a role in how well someone can get into their character's headspace?

Maybe the setting has advanced gender reassignment magic, and no stigma of changing one's gender identity. It's so prevalent that there is no need to even roll or mention having changed genders because everyone just accepts that.

Joking aside, this seems like a fine creation method for a one shot or con game. If character creation is fast enough, you might be able to use something like DCCs funnel to weed out some of the trash. Or, if you are in that medium range of honest, just keep rolling characters until you land on something you feel is playable. With the old Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), we would roll a few dozen characters just to see what we churned up then pick something. To clarify that,  we rolled a ton of d% then sorted out what that meant later, as in fill a page with just dice rolls before seeing what characters got made.

I prefer random creation over all other character classes.  I'd willingly play a game where social class, etc, was all random.

But I play the game to see what happens, not to have a bunch of people telling me how awesome I am.

My dinkie is mighty.

Quote from: AsenRG;1027813Let's be fair to Pundy, Bren.

I think it was fair. The comment was intended as a simple "taking the piss out" type of remark.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1028023My dinkie is mighty.

So you're saying it's mighty dinkie, eh? You know I really didn't need to know that.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1028023I prefer random creation over all other character classes.  I'd willingly play a game where social class, etc, was all random.

But I play the game to see what happens, not to have a bunch of people telling me how awesome I am.

In all the years I've run games and I've never had anyone, except on guy who none of us ever actually wanted to play with, ever do that.  Even when the players were allowed to build their characters as they wanted, within the system, like HERO.  None have ever cared about being emotionally validated since they were 14.  They were awesome by their actions, not by their descriptions.

I'm sorry your tables suck so bad that you have to make it random so it doesn't happen.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1028023My dinkie is mighty.

*Must resist 'Fooled us' comment*

Quote from: Bren;1028105So you're saying it's mighty dinkie, eh? You know I really didn't need to know that.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1028115*Must resist 'Fooled us' comment*

I've taken so many points in "Craft Disturbing Mental Image" I've lost count.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1028121I've taken so many points in "Craft Disturbing Mental Image" I've lost count.

It's kinda charming that you think this, but I game with sailors.