Quote from: Daztur;10261652. Point buy chargen that uses different systems for chargen than for advancement. So for example in WoD if you make a specialized starting PC and then pick up a random grab bag of skills later it's a lot cheaper to get the exact same final PC than if you start out generalized and then specialize later. That's annoying.

I'm with you there.  I hate that with the burning of 1,016 suns!  Especially WoD - which tells you that specializing at creation (which their system incentivises) means that you're having badwrongfun.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1026179I'm with you there.  I hate that with the burning of 1,016 suns!  Especially WoD - which tells you that specializing at creation (which their system incentivises) means that you're having badwrongfun.

Yeah, am playing a WoD campaign in which the GM allows replacement PCs to come in with the same XP as the original ones. So there is literally no reason not to min-max the everliving hell out of a starting character and then spread the XP around. But then you get an unfair advantage over starting characters so I restrain myself from doing that but it's annoying that I have to intentionally handicap myself like that.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1026179I'm with you there.  I hate that with the burning of 1,016 suns!  Especially WoD - which tells you that specializing at creation (which their system incentivises) means that you're having badwrongfun.

I always wondered if that was poorly thought-through design, or a secret trap. Trap in that yes by total character points spent, putting 5s in a few skills/attributes/everything else and then picking up the others later might make sense, but there might not be a later if you start out with a 0-1 in a given ability.

Eh, sometimes I like to roll for stats (4d6, drop the lowest; best of 7). And sometimes I'd rather people make their  characters at home and so I just use Point Buy. I find that some editions, Point Buy is slightly more advantageous like in 3.5 or 4E due to the math but 5E has allowed a bit more variation without seemingly terrible problems.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1026117The particular method I have strong feelings for is anything quick and simple.  If it takes more than 15 minutes to create a character, that's too long.

I'm fine with OD&D's 3d6 in order, but I'm just as fine with TFT's "allocate 35 points" and West End' Star Wars "take a template and add some points."

This is a good sentiment, though I do like Burning Wheel character creation, which can take longer than 15 minutes.

I've definitely moved past GURPS/Hero type complex build, and I'm not so keep on D&D 3.x style where the "build" extends through play. One of my feelings about too complex a build is that it encourages and enables players to have a "complete" character that can't be messed with in play. I think the most important thing is to break this attachment to character so we are actually playing to find out what happens to the character (whether death is realistically on the table or not). If death is realistically on the table, quick chargen means you can quickly get back into play which is a good thing.

So, for me my list:

3d6 in order, pick a class, roll social standing, roll hit points, roll gold, pick gear from a list of 100 items or less (OD&D)
2d6 in order, pick and qualify for a career (or submit to draft) walk through career, pick equipment from a list of 200 items or less (Classic Traveller)
Pick stock, pick birth life path, pick 1-4 more life paths depending on campaign pitch, tally up points, spend points on attributes, skills, gear (from a list of less than 100 items), social connections, and write up some goals for your character (Burning Wheel)

Since fully joining the OSR, I haven't actually tried to run RuneQuest, so I'm not sure if I'd go with 3d6 in order style chargen for it, or use the scheme I last used (assign N points to attributes, distribute skill category bonuses [not tied to attributes, but informed by them - one goal: make it so everyone doesn't pick INT 18 because INT affects EVERY skill bonus and isn't changeable], pick background from a small list, distribute skill bonuses).

Let's see, that covers the games on my main list. If I chose to try out other games in my library, I'd follow these ideals (and those ideals would also inform my choice of game).

I have played in some Mongoose Traveller, and honestly, the chargen for that, while inspired by Classic Traveller, is WAY too complex. To the extent that one game I was going to play in, I haven't even generated a character for after several months...

Frank

Random, no choices.

Well just recently I would have said the one in Beyond the Wall playbooks.

After that, Traveller (Classic)

After that DCC funnel RAW

After that 4d6 drop lowest and choose for ADnD 1st or 2nd edition or Fantastic Heroes and Witchery.

Rock bottom is point assign. I find that dull, tbh. YMMV.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1026640Random, no choices.

No choices at all? For D&D (or OSR clones) do you use tables to randomize race and class decisions?

For Classic Traveller, there's http://www.mindspring.com/~ffilz/Gaming/travellercharacter.html which generates a completely random character (though I have added URL options to allow some control over the randomness).

Frank

I hate anything random in character creation. I'm a craftsman by trade. I love to build things using my skill. I prefer playing classic story archetypes and enjoy tactical/problem-solving challenges where the skill of the players managing resources is the determining factor in who shines, not who got some lucky rolls at char-gen and so has twice the resources as the guy who rolled crap (and I say this as someone who tends to have fairly phenomenal luck with random attribute generation).

I also have precious little free time to actually game and its a drag when I'm stuck with something I have zero interest in actually playing. I have zero interest in playing a half-orc wizard or a gnome thief or a kenku anything.

My preferred method would be allocation. Point buy systems (ex. Champions or Mutants & Masterminds) encourage my craftsman brain into trying to eke out maximum efficiency of every last point. But choose race/class and assign ability scores from an array (ex. 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, gives me the degree of control over making a character I prefer without the total freedom of point buy that drives me to distraction with worrying about whether I'm getting the absolute best efficiency out of my points.

I like a "mixed" approach... "random with balance" if you will.

Two examples: yin-yang and "random point buy".

Yin-yang:

You basically roll randomly but the results are more or less balanced. Here is how I described it in my Dark Fantasy Basic (which certainly didn't please everybody, but...):

1. Generate your six ability scores using the yin-yang
method: roll 3d6 for your Strength and subtract that
value from 21 to find out your Intelligence (for example,
if your Strength is 15, your Intelligence is 6). Do the same
for Wisdom and Dexterity, and then Constitution and
Charisma.

2. Change your highest ability score to 17 (if lower than 17)
OR one ability score of your choice to 8. Then swap abilities
around if you wish, provided no more than half your abilities
are changed.

Why? Characters are more archetypal, fits some unspoken assumptions of early D&D (high STR meaning low INT, for example), but still leaves room for choice and balance.

Random point buy:

Looks like this (for 5e):

d100

Ability scores

1
15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

2
15, 15, 14, 10, 8, 8

3
15, 15, 14, 9, 9, 8

4
15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8

Etc.

Personally, my order of preference is:

Point Buy

Allocation

Random with some choice (the more choices the better), grudgingly
With totally random as a deal breaker.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1026016Depends on what we're playing.

Good answer.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1026117The particular method I have strong feelings for is anything quick and simple.  If it takes more than 15 minutes to create a character, that's too long.

I'm fine with OD&D's 3d6 in order, but I'm just as fine with TFT's "allocate 35 points" and West End' Star Wars "take a template and add some points."

This too isn't a bad answer.

Quote from: ffilz;1026664No choices at all? For D&D (or OSR clones) do you use tables to randomize race and class decisions?

He'd also need tables for random spells (some D&D versions already have that) and for what equipment your character starts out with. None of this spending gold pieces to pick what you want (like a good weapon or useful armor) from an equipment list. So maybe your fighter gets a bastard sword, composite bow, and good armor or maybe he gets a wooden club, tattered clothing, an old donkey, a rickety cart, and 12 crates full of chickens.

Quote from: ffilz;1026664No choices at all? For D&D (or OSR clones) do you use tables to randomize race and class decisions?

Quote from: Bren;1026908He'd also need tables for random spells (some D&D versions already have that) and for what equipment your character starts out with. None of this spending gold pieces to pick what you want (like a good weapon or useful armor) from an equipment list. So maybe your fighter gets a bastard sword, composite bow, and good armor or maybe he gets a wooden club, tattered clothing, an old donkey, a rickety cart, and 12 crates full of chickens.

It's not quite that extreme, but 'here's pile of pre-gens, pick a sheet, any sheet' is effectively pretty close to this.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1026970It's not quite that extreme, but 'here's pile of pre-gens, pick a sheet, any sheet' is effectively pretty close to this.

That's a good method for one-shots and convention slots.

Quote from: Bren;1026972That's a good method for one-shots and convention slots.

It certainly is (just from a practicality perspective). It also highlights the value of random generation--making a winning hand out of what you are dealt.

I totally get those people who want point buy, array, roll and allocate, etc. It's hard to explain why anyone would ever want to play 3D6 in order or the like to someone who didn't start with it. It doesn't seem to make sense, and I'm sure can sound like some pathetic old fart talking about how they played the game in hard mode, uphill, both ways, in the snow, with no shoes, etc. etc. etc. And I want to step away from that and highlight that it has some actual value other than posturing-- it makes you play things outside your expectations. Either not playing the class/build/whatever you normally would, or doing so but with attributes or the like that are dis-synergous (so a high Wisdom, low Strength fighter, for instance, to default to a D&D-like game). It opens up the opportunity to be surprised by how things turn out, and I think that has some value.