Quote from: RPGPundit;1030142If you're not talking about playing canon superheroes, then what you get from point-buy is a bunch of carefully min-maxed superheroes, with a selection of powers meant to be carefully crafted to be as effective based on the RULES as possible, and chosen from a limited range of experiences.

  True, some gamers just don't have the imagination and sense of responsibility to go with the power that point-buy systems provide.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030266This is what sometimes happens with the newer D&D games.  A -1 to -3 can sometimes derail an entire adventure because the one person who can pick or kick the door's lock, simply cannot.  

I would agree that comparing being 'OK with' stats in a game where they just really don't matter that much to one where they matter a great deal is pretty apples to oranges. That much is clear

But the example seems dissimilar. If you are creating a dungeon where the entire night's adventure is predicated on an open locks check (or find secret door check) that people can reasonably fail, that's poorly thought through design. You don't require rolls that the party cannot recover from failing. If the only way to proceed is making a dice roll, then eventually someone will roll poorly enough to fail (or else why are you rolling?), and then you will be in that position regardless.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030269I would agree that comparing being 'OK with' stats in a game where they just really don't matter that much to one where they matter a great deal is pretty apples to oranges. That much is clear

But the example seems dissimilar. If you are creating a dungeon where the entire night's adventure is predicated on an open locks check (or find secret door check) that people can reasonably fail, that's poorly thought through design. You don't require rolls that the party cannot recover from failing. If the only way to proceed is making a dice roll, then eventually someone will roll poorly enough to fail (or else why are you rolling?), and then you will be in that position regardless.

I'm basing it off the experiences I had with a Rules Cyclopedia and several 2e games I once played in.  And we were using premade dungeons, from bought adventures.  I know the Rules Cyclopedia game had 3 restarts because one player couldn't get higher than a 8 on his character sheets.  It was B2 Keep on The Borderlands, the original 1979?  Or was it 78?  I forget... version.  And some of the rooms only have two ways in or out.  Or have ambushes that can trap players in a single location, and a bonus of 0 in their prime stat would have helped survive.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1030266Well, you're OK with it, because you preferred game doesn't actually care about stats, it doesn't really give much beyond XP bonues past a certain digit, and you need to get really lucky to actually get a +1 in anything.  But when you're holding the party back, because your rogue/thief can't really do anything successfully because of the penalties...

I've been in games in which TPK's happened because someone had a low stat.  And it made the DM's dinkie sad, because he wanted his game to last more than one session.  It's like making a train set, finding out you did one thing wrong, and then you have to tear it all down, all of it, because of it and start over.

Now imagine having to do that multiple times, and barely getting further than the first attempt because of one small part that just doesn't want to fit in, it's too small.

This is what sometimes happens with the newer D&D games.  A -1 to -3 can sometimes derail an entire adventure because the one person who can pick or kick the door's lock, simply cannot.  And then you have to restart over, because everyone is trapped in a small room with more baddies that are in the only exits, because they can't fit, thus trapping the entire party.  Simply because the map only had two ways in or out and one is blocked, the other permanently locked.  So everyone makes new characters, and suddenly someone else is the buttmonkey that's got the penalties and even though you decide to somehow magically know that going that first way will lead to a bad end, have another because the die roll is much higher than it otherwise would be.

I don't know about you, but having to restart the same dungeon 3 or 4 times and not really getting all that far, I get a little bored.  And so do my friends who are much older than I am.

Well, as has been discussed many times, if they HAVE to do a single task, either redesign the adventure so they don't, or let them accomplish it eventually.  (This is, I suspect, where Take 10 and Take 20 come from.)

But in my opinion that's shitty game/adventure design.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030275Well, as has been discussed many times, if they HAVE to do a single task, either redesign the adventure so they don't, or let them accomplish it eventually.  (This is, I suspect, where Take 10 and Take 20 come from.)

But in my opinion that's shitty game/adventure design.

Yep, in spades. And having an 18 in all 6 attributes still leaves the possibility the thief can't pick the lock. So straw man...

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1030281Yep, in spades. And having an 18 in all 6 attributes still leaves the possibility the thief can't pick the lock. So straw man...

Frank

Yeah, it is a strawman you're using.

There's a difference when have a +3 and the player not being able to roll higher than 10 when all he needs is a total of say...  14, when a player needs to beat the same number needs to roll a 16 to make the same roll, and he's the only one who can do it, without killing himself as easily as say the Fighter kicking a door down, which would end up gassing the place and possibly killing all the players anyway.  The first is just bad luck and happens.  The second is making the 'job' harder than it needs to be.

And again, if you have any other choice, would you take Buck the Toothless (who doesn't have any real capacity to survive a dungeon) with you?  Assuming of course, you like Buck with his bumbling mannerisms and good heartedness, and don't want to murder him by sending him first.

If you have to have characters with high stats, then set up a character creation system that gives high stats.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030229Maybe.  If rolling a poor character in ANY game gives your dinkie a sad, I don't think I want to play with you.

I think you are being a bit silly and hyperbolic on this point, but that is your prerogative. And frequently your shtick. But I'd still be willing to play with you even if you are sometimes hyperbolic and silly.

Anything other than 3d6 in order feels like cheating.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1030138I don't see at all how that logic follows.

Just following your logic to it's clear conclusion. If players cannot select anything they could not chose in real life, then clearly the setting has some mechanism to allow the character to select their gender. Because it's not discussed this means it must be common enough that swapping gender is a casual event that anyone can do.

Quote from: Bren;1030304I think you are being a bit silly and hyperbolic on this point, but that is your prerogative. And frequently your shtick. But I'd still be willing to play with you even if you are sometimes hyperbolic and silly.

Well, "giving your dinkie a sad" does not mean to me saying "Boy, does THIS guy suck!" with a laugh.  Nor does it mean saying, "You know, I'm worried about this character's usefulness/survivability" in a reasonable tone.  To me "giving your dinkie a sad" implies pouting and/or whining, and yeah, I don't want to play with somebody who pouts and/or whines.  And that bit I think is neither hyperbolic nor silly, and oh brother, have I met pouters and whiners over the years.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1030267True, some gamers just don't have the imagination and sense of responsibility to go with the power that point-buy systems provide.

See, the thing is, it's the player's role to try to do the best they can with the resources the system offers them. It's part of the job. If a system let's them pick and choose every tiny detail of their character creation without any structure, then the player doing the best job is the one that optimizes most effectively.

That doesn't mean he'll end up with the most interesting character, or the one that will provide the most challenges, or the one that will be best for the campaign to be interesting. That's just another reason why point-buy isn't as good as randomization.

Quote from: Certified;1030353Just following your logic to it's clear conclusion. If players cannot select anything they could not chose in real life, then clearly the setting has some mechanism to allow the character to select their gender. Because it's not discussed this means it must be common enough that swapping gender is a casual event that anyone can do.

So you're either claiming physical sex is a matter of choice (in which case you're completely out to lunch vis a vis biology) or that gender identity is a matter of choice (in which case you are in complete disagreement with the dominant LGBT narrative of being born that way and that gender identity is NOT a choice).

Which is it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1030704So you're either claiming physical sex is a matter of choice (in which case you're completely out to lunch vis a vis biology) or that gender identity is a matter of choice (in which case you are in complete disagreement with the dominant LGBT narrative of being born that way and that gender identity is NOT a choice).

Which is it?

I don't know that I buy his point, but you've got it reversed. He is stating that since gender isn't a choice, it would flow from your logic of "The only thing he gets to pick is what career he gets into. Which makes sense, because we do that in real life too" that the player ought also not be able to choose their character's gender.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030732I don't know that I buy his point, but you've got it reversed. He is stating that since gender isn't a choice, it would flow from your logic of "The only thing he gets to pick is what career he gets into. Which makes sense, because we do that in real life too" that the player ought also not be able to choose their character's gender.

This is correct. However, since players are allowed to select gender in the system, then clearly something within the game world allows them to do so without repercussions.