Random lifepath with death in char-gen.  Though really, it does depend a lot on game system.

I've done 3d6 in order in a dungeon crawl game.  I had fun!  But I couldn't help notice we died a lot at first, and the characters who survived to level had above average stats, not too far off 4d6 drop lowest.  Then we'd get new or drop-in players, and they'd roll their 3d6 in order and be outclassed both by level and stats.  Sometimes we'd manage to keep them alive anyway, but it was a mixed blessing for them - the GM was inspired by West Marches but wasn't actually running multiple nights, so new players could never mount their own delves to catch up or perish trying.  The regulars were always there on game night.

Now I'm more okay with 4d6 drop lowest, though I still like in order and no point swaps to keep characters feeling organic.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029164You're proceeding from mistaken information.  In OD&D the only advantage to a high prime requisite is an XP bonus, and the only disadvantage to a low prime requisite is an XP penalty.  A very low CON gets you -1 per HD, and a very high CON (15+) gets you a +1 per hd.  Each point of INT over 10 lets you learn a language.

A character with all stats between 9 and 12 is perfectly viable for any class, and low stats simply don't penalize you all that much.  A fighter with a STR of 7 is perfectly viable if you don't mind the XP penalty and absolutely must play a fighter.

Rules Cyclopedia, an edition that you are out of touch with, but is older than most of the posters here:

Bonuses and Penalties for Ability Scores
Ability  Score  Adjustment
2-3       -3  Penalty
4-5       -2  Penalty
6-8       -1  Penalty
9-12  No adjustment
13-15   +1  Bonus
16-17   +2  Bonus
18        +3  Bonus

So one poor shmuck doesn't get any higher than 8, decides he wants to be...  Pick any class, he'll suck worse than the guy whose highest stat is 14.  Again, not the type of person heroes (Grecian classical or American) take along with them into danger.

Okay, so it varies with edition.  I did specif OD&D, though it's interesting that Rules Cyclopedia is so old.

Honestly, that stat table is brutal.  It reminds me of Pathfinder, and that's one of the reasons I hate PF.  In PF don't even TRY to function outside your specialty.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029164You're proceeding from mistaken information.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029137If rolling a poor character in OD&D gives your dinkie a sad, I don't want you playing OD&D with me.

Had you actually said the bits in red you would have been more clear and less contentious.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029191Okay, so it varies with edition.  I did specif OD&D, though it's interesting that Rules Cyclopedia is so old.

Honestly, that stat table is brutal.  It reminds me of Pathfinder, and that's one of the reasons I hate PF.  In PF don't even TRY to function outside your specialty.

That is definitely one of the issues of later games that made the attributes more important. Even in OD&D where I do roll 3d6 straight across the board with no extra dice or rearranging. If the attributes are pretty much all below average, I do give the OPTION to the player of rolling a new set (note that for my play by post games, I actually roll all the dice, so I roll the attributes, which actually is supported by the rules...).

For Traveller, there's always the option of trying to kill off a character with poor attributes. I also allow players to roll a few characters and pick their favorite. They can keep the others as backups (and in some cases players even play 2 PCs to have a backup PC already in the situation).

I haven't actually sat down and contemplated running RuneQuest since my shift to original games. I would actually contemplate straight rolling there also. Point buy DOES NOT work with RQ1/2, Intelligence is WAY to important an attribute, everyone would take it as high as they could possibly do while having any points left for anything else. The last time I actually ran RQ, I let the players spend points on attributes, but instead of figuring their skill bonuses from the attributes, they got a standard array of skill bonuses and were encouraged to consider their attribute values in placing them. With that, Intelligence became more on par with the other attributes. Actually, the first PCs created under the system I just had the players pick attributes, they happened to wind up with a similar point total so I just gave that point total for subsequent characters. So I dunno. I haven't actually contemplated running RQ, when I do I'll decide what to do.

The only other game I really play is Burning Wheel which is totally non-random chargen, but it has a totally different feel from other point buy systems and the way life paths work in Burning Wheel, it puts constraints on characters, you can never get exactly what you want.

Frank

D&D variants: Either 4d6 use the highest 3 results, allocate as player wishes or stat array.
After using stat arrays in 4th and Pathfinder, I rather like them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029191Okay, so it varies with edition.  I did specif OD&D, though it's interesting that Rules Cyclopedia is so old.

Honestly, that stat table is brutal.  It reminds me of Pathfinder, and that's one of the reasons I hate PF.  In PF don't even TRY to function outside your specialty.

Rules Cyclopedia is under 30. But that stat distribution existed for BECMI (1983) and B/X (1981) as well. I think it's less attribute dominant than any of the other non-oD&D (-GH) editions, although whether it or AD&D/OD&D+GH is more or less is something one can debate (ex. non-fighters can get more of their HPs from constitution in RC rules than AD&D, but fighters can get more).

But here we are back at the point that of course no one would care too much about stats in oD&D because they just don't matter that much.

Quote from: Chris24601;1029163I'm reminded of Heroes Unlimited a bit where it was possible to roll a character up who's highest stat is an 8, has only a high school education and whose only powers were Static Electricity Control (or as it was generally known "control static cling") and Extraordinary Sense of Taste (not of the Queer Eye version, which would have been FABULOUS with Control Static Cling; the lame version that lets you detect arsenic by putting it in your mouth) while another rolls up a character with 16's and 20's before skills, is a PHD and has Control Elemental Forces: Air (i.e. Storm) plus Alter Physical Structure: Metal (i.e. Colossus) as their powers.

That first character has no business at all going out into the field to stop muggers, much less supervillains. There's no way Dr. Steelwind drags Static Boy with them to go fight The Living Inferno (unless they're Miscreant or Diabolic and then only to laugh as they burn alive). At least Batman has maxed out stats, extensive training and NIGH-INFINITE MONEY to deal with that stuff.

[video=youtube;zFuMpYTyRjw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw[/youtube]

QuoteI feel the same way about D&D characters. It takes a certain level of ability and initiative to be willing to throw yourself into the lightless depths in pursuit of treasure and other adventurers aren't going risk their lives on a weak link who might get them killed because they're too weak, clumsy, stupid or clueless to deal with a hazardous situation that comes up. At best some of those get to come along and watch the horses and help carry stuff out after the dangerous work is done (or be made to jump up and down while 30' ahead of you in the hallway to set off any traps if you're evil I suppose). But those aren't fellow PCs. They're sidekicks (and not the skilled ones like Robin... more like Robin's Minstrels).

To be fair, most editions do have a clause for 'useless' characters or the like.

Allocation mixed with point buy, but as point buy is a kind of allocation even if free, i took allocation.

Quote from: Certified;1029104Abundant and accepted gender reassignment magic is a clear extension of your prior statement.



Since you cannot pick your gender at birth, clearly there must be some easy and acceptable means to change gender prior to the start of the game that has no social repercussions.

I don't see at all how that logic follows.

Quote from: Chris24601;1029110Again with the hyperbole. It can't be a legitimate difference in preferred playstyle... if you don't like Pundit's way to game, you're mentally ill.

It was YOUR statement, that point-buy is something preferred by people who feel like they  have no control over their own lives or whatever.

QuoteIf you spend your days getting screamed at by a crappy boss... how much fun do you think it would be to roll a hapless peasant where you get to be crapped on with an extra helping of floggings if you dare talk back?

You'd be surprised.

QuoteFor someone who spent a whole lot of time criticizing the the SJW Storygamers for their efforts to shut down any alternative, you seem bound and determined to be just like them in decrying any form of play that doesn't match your preferences. No one is making you play in the games I'm playing in. I have no interest in playing in yours. Why be an asshole about it?

I'm not stopping anyone from playing a point-buy game. I just personally think point buy usually sucks ass.

QuoteOkay, let's play Chess. You get no queen or knights. Go.

D&D doesn't play like chess. Unless you're a ridiculously bad GM.

QuoteOr how about this...

- I get a Character of the Middle Upper Class (using the UA rules for Social Class) with a Str 17, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16 (this is an actual set of rolls for a straight 3d6 in order that I saw someone roll up... very unlikely, but possible).

- You get a Character of Lower Lower Class with a Str 13, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8.

We have mutually opposing goals. How do you overcome me?

I am better than you in every possible way. If I get even the slightest whiff that you are plotting against me (and let's face it you're not that bright or likeable... someone will rat you out for the reward) then I have the local constabulary round you up, flog you half to death and lock you in the dungeon until hunger and exposure finishes the job. If you resist they'll just beat you to death in the streets. You have no rights. I am a High Lord. You are a serf plotting treason. End of adversarial challenge.

Or we could do something where its a bit less random than what real life might give two random people in the world and say we're both nobles of roughly equal stature and ability who are each attempting to gain a region of rich farmland or at least keep our rival from getting it. You each get an array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 you can arrange to taste and equivalent starting resources. How you achieve your end goal is up to you. Do you form alliances in the king's court? Do you win battles for the King to try and win his favor? Do you try to assassinate your rival or use foul sorceries to impede him?

Isn't that scenario a bit more challenging and satisfying to beat than curb stomping a hapless serf?

The fact that you envision scenarios like this, and having these results, just tells me you're incredibly unimaginative.
You know what? You're partly right. YOU certainly shouldn't play random-generation games. You're not up to it.

QuoteI think substituting random dice rolls for actual creativity might rot your brain if your favorite superhero is anyone other than one you've created yourself.

But to express that hero you can't have random rolls determining their capabilities... so using Point Buy is the way to go.

If you're not talking about playing canon superheroes, then what you get from point-buy is a bunch of carefully min-maxed superheroes, with a selection of powers meant to be carefully crafted to be as effective based on the RULES as possible, and chosen from a limited range of experiences.

QuoteI occasionally use "random" when I need something to spark my creativity, but once its been sparked I prefer to build and create like the artist and craftsman I am.

Random rolls are a crutch for true creativity, not a replacement.

Oh yeah, I'm sure you're quite the artiste.

Quote from: Chris24601;1029163I'm reminded of Heroes Unlimited a bit where it was possible to roll a character up who's highest stat is an 8, has only a high school education and whose only powers were Static Electricity Control (or as it was generally known "control static cling") and Extraordinary Sense of Taste (not of the Queer Eye version, which would have been FABULOUS with Control Static Cling; the lame version that lets you detect arsenic by putting it in your mouth) while another rolls up a character with 16's and 20's before skills, is a PHD and has Control Elemental Forces: Air (i.e. Storm) plus Alter Physical Structure: Metal (i.e. Colossus) as their powers.

That first character has no business at all going out into the field to stop muggers, much less supervillains. There's no way Dr. Steelwind drags Static Boy with them to go fight The Living Inferno (unless they're Miscreant or Diabolic and then only to laugh as they burn alive). At least Batman has maxed out stats, extensive training and NIGH-INFINITE MONEY to deal with that stuff.

You mean like in the Legion of Superheroes, where you have four characters that have superman-level powers (two of them BEING superboy and supergirl) and then you have the girl who can split into three parts, or the guy who can eat anything, or the girl who has prophetic dreams she can't really control?

And where all of them get overshadowed by the guy who's only superpower is having a 31 INT?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1029186Rules Cyclopedia, an edition that you are out of touch with, but is older than most of the posters here:

Bonuses and Penalties for Ability Scores
Ability  Score  Adjustment
2-3       -3  Penalty
4-5       -2  Penalty
6-8       -1  Penalty
9-12  No adjustment
13-15   +1  Bonus
16-17   +2  Bonus
18        +3  Bonus

So one poor shmuck doesn't get any higher than 8, decides he wants to be...  Pick any class, he'll suck worse than the guy whose highest stat is 14.  Again, not the type of person heroes (Grecian classical or American) take along with them into danger.

You mean like Richard Crookback, or Ivar the Boneless?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1030143And where all of them get overshadowed by the guy who's only superpower is having a 31 INT?

Don't forget plot armor.

Quote from: Bren;1029195Had you actually said the bits in red you would have been more clear and less contentious.

Maybe.  If rolling a poor character in ANY game gives your dinkie a sad, I don't think I want to play with you.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030229Maybe.  If rolling a poor character in ANY game gives your dinkie a sad, I don't think I want to play with you.

Well, you're OK with it, because you preferred game doesn't actually care about stats, it doesn't really give much beyond XP bonues past a certain digit, and you need to get really lucky to actually get a +1 in anything.  But when you're holding the party back, because your rogue/thief can't really do anything successfully because of the penalties...

I've been in games in which TPK's happened because someone had a low stat.  And it made the DM's dinkie sad, because he wanted his game to last more than one session.  It's like making a train set, finding out you did one thing wrong, and then you have to tear it all down, all of it, because of it and start over.

Now imagine having to do that multiple times, and barely getting further than the first attempt because of one small part that just doesn't want to fit in, it's too small.

This is what sometimes happens with the newer D&D games.  A -1 to -3 can sometimes derail an entire adventure because the one person who can pick or kick the door's lock, simply cannot.  And then you have to restart over, because everyone is trapped in a small room with more baddies that are in the only exits, because they can't fit, thus trapping the entire party.  Simply because the map only had two ways in or out and one is blocked, the other permanently locked.  So everyone makes new characters, and suddenly someone else is the buttmonkey that's got the penalties and even though you decide to somehow magically know that going that first way will lead to a bad end, have another because the die roll is much higher than it otherwise would be.

I don't know about you, but having to restart the same dungeon 3 or 4 times and not really getting all that far, I get a little bored.  And so do my friends who are much older than I am.