To my mind, there's a very simple formula for how to write a good adventure scenario:

1. Here's the situation
2. Here's the parties involved
3. Here's what they want
4. Here's how they intend to achieve it
5. Here's what will happen if the players don't interfere.

I don't know if you'd call that a plot or not. There is a set sequence of events, but the whole point is that those events do not account for the players and the GM will have to change them in response to player actions.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 14, 2024, 07:46:35 PMTo my mind, there's a very simple formula for how to write a good adventure scenario:

1. Here's the situation
2. Here's the parties involved
3. Here's what they want
4. Here's how they intend to achieve it
5. Here's what will happen if the players don't interfere.

I don't know if you'd call that a plot or not. There is a set sequence of events, but the whole point is that those events do not account for the players and the GM will have to change them in response to player actions.

That's not a "plot," per se, because you have constructed a motivation tree (here's what they want and here's what they'll do), not a series of events that will happen, regardless of the players' actions.  The difference is in the forcing of events.

What you describe is similar to my process.

"Conflict designer" is a good way to approach. You want to create interesting situations without being attached to the way that they turn out. Sometimes this means PCs don't make it through the adventure, by the way!

It occurs to me that there's probably an interesting conversation to be had regarding what is the best starting point for designing an adventure:

-Location (e.g., a haunted castle, a witch's swamp, etc)
-characters  (e.g., The grand vizier is plotting to overthrow the sultan)
-goal (e.g., rescue the princess, get the artifact)
-primary challenge (e.g, a heist, a castle siege)
-theme (e.g., horror, pulp adventure, mystery, etc.)
-plot (e.g., a tale of star-crossed lovers or whatever)

...and so on.

I think the most traditional way would be starting from location. You build your dungeon or hex map or whatever and then you find the "story" through the act of populating it. I've used all of the above at one time or another, but I think I've gotten my best results starting from either characters or primary challenge.

Greetings!

I've watched Professor DM for some years now. He's an "Old School" Gamer, and an excellent DM. He is usually right and very wise on everything.

I find it helpful to not take Professor DM out of context, and to interpret what he says and advises in context, and generously, in light of the broader issues he talks about and what he is getting at. He is intelligent, and thoughtful, with strong reasoning for whatever stuff he is talking about, or a particular take on a subject.

Professor DM always has good commentary.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 15, 2024, 12:50:39 AMIt occurs to me that there's probably an interesting conversation to be had regarding what is the best starting point for designing an adventure:

-Location (e.g., a haunted castle, a witch's swamp, etc)
-characters  (e.g., The grand vizier is plotting to overthrow the sultan)
-goal (e.g., rescue the princess, get the artifact)
-primary challenge (e.g, a heist, a castle siege)
-theme (e.g., horror, pulp adventure, mystery, etc.)
-plot (e.g., a tale of star-crossed lovers or whatever)

...and so on.

I think the most traditional way would be starting from location. You build your dungeon or hex map or whatever and then you find the "story" through the act of populating it. I've used all of the above at one time or another, but I think I've gotten my best results starting from either characters or primary challenge.

All I ever needed as a structure was right there on pages B51 & B52 of the Moldvay B/X rules. That and building on your experience as you go has worked for me.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 11, 2024, 07:30:37 AMOk. What was the purpose of this post? Are you interested in who agrees with this or not?

The purpose of this post is because I am new to the forum. I thought it would be an interesting ice-breaker. I came across it during a long period where I did not have time to connect with roleplayers though the forums but could still connect to the hobby by watching YouTubes.

This quote demonstrates something vaguely in the direction of how I go about DMing, too. As opposed to railroading players, their character decisions are what the story and world-building is founded upon.

There is a subtext in the name the Reviled Society, what else could that be referring to?

Thanks for the great quotes.

Quote from: mcobden on December 13, 2024, 04:55:03 PMIsnt most of the fun of being a DM finding out how players react to crazy situations? I really dont want to tell a story as much as I want to be involved in the telling of a story I havent heard before.

Yes! This. Exactly.
I use an over-arching metaplot, for events in the world which will happen with or without the characters. That's one thread. Each character arc is another thread. They all weave.
Most of my fun is inventing the new stuff where they have gone in their own direction and working that back around into the unwritten metaplot.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 14, 2024, 07:46:35 PMTo my mind, there's a very simple formula for how to write a good adventure scenario:

1. Here's the situation
2. Here's the parties involved
3. Here's what they want
4. Here's how they intend to achieve it
5. Here's what will happen if the players don't interfere.

I don't know if you'd call that a plot or not. There is a set sequence of events, but the whole point is that those events do not account for the players and the GM will have to change them in response to player actions.

That's excellent.
Thanks for writing this.
You describe it perfectly.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 14, 2024, 07:34:53 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on December 14, 2024, 06:03:34 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 14, 2024, 05:22:02 PMSo, you have your experience, and I have mine.  What next?

You admit you're wrong?  :-)  Okay, prolly not

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 14, 2024, 05:22:02 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on December 14, 2024, 03:48:44 PMFrom my personal experience adventures run better when planned around a series of events rather than a sandbox.  You can't do pacing and the dramatic structure from just a situation, and those are two things that definitely make for a fun adventure.

From my personal experience, this is false.  Players (especially experienced ones, but many newbies also fit under this umbrella) have a lot more fun when they feel like their choices matter, and "pacing and the dramatic structure" are the inverse of choice (not completely... but close enough in this case).  My players enjoy best when they get to decide (by their actions) what the climax of the adventure might be (and when it occurs).

You're making an assumption there, that being that if a plot is used for planning purposes, it must also be used in actual play.  Forcing a plot during play is just bad DMing.  I'm saying use a story to design the environment then ignore it.  As an example, you generally want the climax at the end of the adventure, otherwise the rest is a anticlimactic.  So put the big bad at the spot in the dungeon furthest from the entrance so they'll likely encounter it last.  If they find a shortcut or a back door, so be it.  They still have choice and control.  But most likely the big bad will be the exciting conclusion to the experience.  An open environment, city, or wilderness can be done the same way, it's just a bit more complicated

That's not a "plot."  That's adventure or lair design (and logic... the big bad usually wants to be as far from the danger as possible, if for no other reason than secrecy).  A plot is a sequence of events in a story, usually presented in some coherent (often chronological) order.  The entire point of a plot is that the events of the story happen and are related.  When you talk about the "dramatic structure," by normal meaning this refers to the pattern of rising action, climax, and falling action (denouement) as commonly found in literature.  There is no guarantee that players will make choices that will follow that pattern.  What if they find a way to neuter the big bad guy (BBG) without having to physically defeat him?  What if they avoid the BBG completely?  What if they jump directly to the BBG and don't follow any of the challenges?

You're going to have to explain your definition of these terms, because you are not using the standard definitions of the elements of a story.  Creating an adventure that scales in threat level or features the BBG at the end (because he will almost always be the end... the adventure usually ends when the motivation for it ends) is not replicating the elements of a story.  Replicating a narrative structure involves determining what events will happen and in what order... which is what Prof DM and the rest of us are arguing against...

I'm pretty sure I'm using the terms in exactly the common usage.  I was going to gin up an example to illustrate but realized I can't afford the time right now.  Maybe after the holidays.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 14, 2024, 03:48:44 PMHis articles frequently have good insight and advice but this time he's wrong.  (And let's not get into his bad behavior - that's another discussion entirely)  From my personal experience adventures run better when planned around a series of events rather than a sandbox.  You can't do pacing and the dramatic structure from just a situation, and those are two things that definitely make for a fun adventure.  In my experience planning a situation only works well in a limited environment, like a dungeon, due to prep time constraints.  There's definitely a correlation between how much preparation I've put into an encounter and how fun it is.  When needed I can wing it with the best of them, but the result are less consistent.  He talks about wasting time on alternate plot lines.  It's a much bigger waste of time prepping all of the situations that the characters might find themselves in.  So yeah, I've found the way to go is prepare several of the most likely lines of events then turn the players loose to do what they want.  I rarely guess badly enough in my planning that I have to do total improv.

I think you are mostly wrong, for the reasons others have stated, but if writing a plot/event based adventure for publication it's pretty much necessary to follow this advice. If it's homebrew, I find just having motivated NPCs and letting events play out as they will creates far more drama and interest than a pre-prepped plot/event series.

Edit: Also if you are weak at improvisation and/or at NPC creation/motivation you may have to GM like this to substitute for your weak areas. I just think such weakness is less common than a lot of people seem to believe.

"Conflict Designer" is an interesting way of putting it but it's a little bit of both "conflict designing" and storytelling. Wanting to be entertained by players and just letting them go do their thing can be done to an extent. I feel that players want to be entertained too by having at least some semblance of a story frame (or several) to follow. Mostly because we're all used to having a somewhat beginning, middle and end.