Quote from: RPGPundit;807331I don't think we have to set OD&D on a pedestal.  We should recognize the amazing game it was, and how it created the hobby, but we don't need to pretend that it was some kind of perfect proto-game that was never improved upon.

Improvement, or a lack thereof is an opinion. I see AD&D as a different game than OD&D not an improvement.

When one starts to think of additional rules complexity as something that "allows" more cool stuff to happen in the game, it is time to take a step back and ask why.

I see the Greyhawk supplement as a mixed bag. New spells, magic items, monsters, and ideas for tricks & traps are nice to have.

The additional rules regarding ability scores, especially the addition of exceptional strength wasn't an improvement IMHO. Once adopted, any fighter who didn't have exceptional strength was suddenly very sub-par compared to those that did. Likewise any magic user who didn't have an INT score in the uppermost ranges was suddenly doomed to suck compared to those that did.

The overall effect added little to the game except an arms race, bonus bloat nightmare that still exists to this day.

OD&D wasn't perfect by any means. No game really is, but not every new idea or addition is objectively an improvement either.

OD&D is one of the few editions of the game I have no exposure to or experience with (although if they ever put the PDFs back up, I may take a look). However, based on the various comments and reports from multiple sides, I get the impression that it is very much a product of a specific time and milieu, and if you're not part of or familiar with that time and audience, and the presuppositions of the game, you may very well find it partly or entirely difficult to understand--or 'unplayable'.

   OG's book may prove useful as a "Reader's Guide" or "Preface" to the game, assuming it isn't overly full of sophmoric humor and demands for fermented grain beverages.

Quote from: Omega;807340Nah, thats the OSR peoples job dont ya know?

Nah we just like playing it.

I don't think OD&D is the perfect game. Frankly its presentation sucks on multiple levels compared to later games. Beyond the the fact it was produced in the early 1970s.

I do think the fact that OD&D was developed by Gygax while running an active campaign is worth placing on a pedestal.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;807398OD&D is one of the few editions of the game I have no exposure to or experience with (although if they ever put the PDFs back up, I may take a look). However, based on the various comments and reports from multiple sides, I get the impression that it is very much a product of a specific time and milieu, and if you're not part of or familiar with that time and audience, and the presuppositions of the game, you may very well find it partly or entirely difficult to understand--or 'unplayable'.

   OG's book may prove useful as a "Reader's Guide" or "Preface" to the game, assuming it isn't overly full of sophmoric humor and demands for fermented grain beverages.

That true of OD&D as a product, that it was a artifact of its time. But as a game it very solid. For a better presentation of the rules there is Swords & Wizardry White Box, Delving Deeper and others. Add the Greyhawk supplement in and what you have is the base of D&D. Which can be found in a better presentation in the Sword & Wizardry Core rules.

All of these are free to download.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;807390Improvement, or a lack thereof is an opinion. I see AD&D as a different game than OD&D not an improvement.

The AD&D Monster Manual is basically an OD&D supplement on steroids. There are various OD&Disms throughout the book. But also a lot of new stuff in a greatly expanded statblock.

The PHB was a cleaned up compilation of OD&D plus supplements. Again with expansions in various areas.

The DMG is what truly made AD&D a distinct game, while some of it could found in various OD&D supplements the vast majority was new material.

Quote from: estar;807401I don't think OD&D is the perfect game. Frankly its presentation sucks on multiple levels compared to later games. Beyond the the fact it was produced in the early 1970s.

True. BX is the perfect game. :cool: