Someone raised in an environment should know how to act.

Someone brand new to an environment should have to learn how to act, unless they were taught beforehand.

So, a farmboy who is suddenly a member of the court, having saved the life of a prince or rescued a princess, would perhaps struggle to fit in. Sure, he would know how to tug his forelock, bow to his superiors and so on, but he would have no idea which cutlery to use, how to dance with the princess or which colour clothes to wear at a royal dinner. That is where a skill comes in useful.

Quote from: RPGPundit;806091Yes, sure, but what I mean to say is that people make the mistake of treating etiquette as a "do I know this" skill.

I understood what you meant. But I disagree. On two points, first that people raised in a culture always know what appropriate behavior for their class actually is. For example, I am reading several Reformation Comedies right now and it is clear that the ability to behave with proper etiquette varies between the characters who are from the same (London Society) social class. In fact even some characters from the country (a different social class) display more appropriate or better etiquette. Two other examples: (1) Captain Blood by Rafael Sabatini (or nearly any Sabatini hero) routinely displays better etiquette (which includes wit and and savoire faire) than those who oppose him. Even when those in opposition are of the same or higher social class. His etiquette is one of the things that set him apart from his men and his enemies. (2) Cyrano de Bergerac by Edmund Rostand, we see Cyrano in the duel in the theatre show his greater wit and etiquette in the way he mocks his opponent for his lack of etiquette and style when insulting Cyrano to provoke a duel. Cynrano displays that sort of wit and clever use of language that was considered the height of etiquette in the Salons of Paris. But this society is one that he was part of due to his skill with words but who the noble challenging him would and should have been due based on his social station.

My second point of disagreement is your idea that having a binary result of the PC always knows how to act within their social class and the PC never knows how to act (very unusual circumstances excepted) outside of their class is more interesting result in an RPG than a range of outcomes in what is known with the probabilities of getting those results adjusted based on class, skill, and circumstances.

Quote from: Bren;806154I understood what you meant. But I disagree. On two points, first that people raised in a culture always know what appropriate behavior for their class actually is. For example, I am reading several Reformation Comedies right now and it is clear that the ability to behave with proper etiquette varies between the characters who are from the same (London Society) social class. In fact even some characters from the country (a different social class) display more appropriate or better etiquette. Two other examples: (1) Captain Blood by Rafael Sabatini (or nearly any Sabatini hero) routinely displays better etiquette (which includes wit and and savoire faire) than those who oppose him. Even when those in opposition are of the same or higher social class. His etiquette is one of the things that set him apart from his men and his enemies. (2) Cyrano de Bergerac by Edmund Rostand, we see Cyrano in the duel in the theatre show his greater wit and etiquette in the way he mocks his opponent for his lack of etiquette and style when insulting Cyrano to provoke a duel. Cynrano displays that sort of wit and clever use of language that was considered the height of etiquette in the Salons of Paris. But this society is one that he was part of due to his skill with words but who the noble challenging him would and should have been due based on his social station.

My second point of disagreement is your idea that having a binary result of the PC always knows how to act within their social class and the PC never knows how to act (very unusual circumstances excepted) outside of their class is more interesting result in an RPG than a range of outcomes in what is known with the probabilities of getting those results adjusted based on class, skill, and circumstances.

Binary is always the wrong answer here.  One of the first differences between a combat system that is a descendant of the wargaming roots which produces binary answers and most roleplaying/social roles is the importance of a GM who has earned the trust of the players and who can adjudicate the series of rolls that make up such an encounter/situation.

One of my games, the online Collegium game, is 80% social and knowledge rolls, with some other skill rolls mixed in.  Very, very granular in terms of the rolls and the results.

Yes, but in these cases, I suspect that what's being dealt with isn't so much etiquette as we think of it in  general, or as  I am defining it here, but rather he knowledge of fashionable behaviours.

Knowing what's in style can indeed be a "do I know it" kind of skill.

Quote from: RPGPundit;806625Knowing what's in style can indeed be a "do I know it" kind of skill.

"What's in style" can be as simple as "What is the Emperor wearing?".
That can be a knowledge check. Far different from "What is the polite way to answer?" and "How polite must I be to this person?"
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Quote from: Bren;805329Even people raised in the same social class and circle will vary in their ability (and willingness) to act appropriately within their class.

That is true, however the point may be either to go unnoticed because you are conforming so well to the code of conduct, or somehow extolled for being a true adherent to it.

Social classes of different cultures may not be all that flexible either, and that's where some sort of knowledge roll seems to me to be appropriate - or a bunch of acting rolls.

You can get by in so many situations just by being a good observer.

Quote from: Greentongue;806692"What's in style" can be as simple as "What is the Emperor wearing?".
That can be a knowledge check. Far different from "What is the polite way to answer?" and "How polite must I be to this person?"
=

In the middle-ages, it might not be that simple, because of sumptuary laws.

In later periods, it might not be that simple because often the royal family were not the trendsetters, or at least not the monarch.  And how you dressed (particularly in the upper classes) could even say something about your social interests or political allegiances.

Quote from: Greentongue;806692"What's in style" can be as simple as "What is the Emperor wearing?".
That can be a knowledge check. Far different from "What is the polite way to answer?" and "How polite must I be to this person?"

It can also be extremely dangerous.

If you know that the Emperor wears a jaunty little green hat and you get one made and show up in court wearing it then you run the risk of wearing something explicitly reserved for the emperor, you might be seen as showing up the emperor, or mocking him, the little green hat might be out of date now, showing you to be a bumpkin aping your betters.

Of course, someone brought up in the court would probably know that, as might other nobles from the empire, but strangers/foreigners/visitors might not.

As for how to handle etiquette in game:

Depends on my GM understanding of a player's skill. That's why I encourage a dialogue shift between players and my GM self through first, second, & third person voice. This way if they are struggling with remaining in character to attempt something they have an out (and maybe we can leave it to the will of the dice). Just tell me what you want to do, and how you want to do it, and given my knowledge of your PC, your efforts, and the context, I'll tell you how you did.

As for my favorite system so far to handle it? So far AD&D 2e NWP. Seemingly odd choice, but NWP means professional level of a skill. Which means everyone who doesn't have it may attempt it otherwise on their stats (with possible modifiers).

But people with NWP can gloss over quite a bit of rolling until it is actually at their difficulty level. Basically Etiquette is Savoir Faire, for professionals even those who travel far just pick up effortlessly the way on how to do things. They "know how to do" because they are a quick study on nuance.

It's a very loose GM discretion system where extra rolling is avoided. And when rolling is needed it is a basic roll under, so percentile increments are easy to gauge on the fly modifiers.