To be frank, I squealed so hard over the World of Dungeons print out that I hardly looked at the rules for DW. Seeing hack n' slash RAW a little later, I never figured that the moves did much more than the "fiction" of putting an axe into a hobgoblin, so I don't care for whatever may count as framing if that means every little thing is world shaking as the player's destiny in the game world.

I've got a lot of homework to do on this Forge stuff, I've completely missed all of it. If we were using Mark Rosewater's definitions of games, it'd be more fair to call storygames activities, though maybe a pure sandbox AD&D game is then a toy in that respect. AD&D is still a "toy" that can double as a game though. Perhaps that article should be required reading?

Quote from: Lunamancer on February 14, 2023, 11:23:52 AM
It takes a rare discipline to not let that go to your head. That's why we get Volkswagon dodgeball.

tbh that still sounds hilarious and epic, if ill fitting for the setting.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 14, 2023, 12:02:06 PM
To be frank, I squealed so hard over the World of Dungeons print out that I hardly looked at the rules for DW. Seeing hack n' slash RAW a little later, I never figured that the moves did much more than the "fiction" of putting an axe into a hobgoblin, so I don't care for whatever may count as framing if that means every little thing is world shaking as the player's destiny in the game world.

I would say Apocalypse World is a better introduction to PbtA than Dungeon World, as it's a lighter read and straight from the author that created the engine.

Notice though that PbtA is not a storygame, but more of a straight RPG with storygame sensibilities*. For actual storygames I recommend "Fiasco" or "My Life With Master".


*some people call them "narrative RPGs", which seems a fair label to me.

AW & BitD would be systems I'd browse for ideas, and I appreciate the recommendations, but I have no love for the sensibilities whatsoever.

Another thing I find most annoying from the Threefold FAQ which GNS was built on:

The concept of "inner drama." That's really turmoil, and its valid for a character to feel that--but the action of stories don't move forward from navel gazing. Take that samurai warrior: he's stunned about the circumstances of his son, but in real life you can just be flabbergasted, staring off into the distance for 30 seconds, and of course it's uncomfortable thing to see someone go through that in real life. Now imagine instead if in a samurai movie, we had 30 seconds of staring off with no music, or sound effects beyond his breathing or a light breeze, and there's no dub telling the audience his inner monologue. Just 30 seconds of face twitching, staring off frame, while the samurai momentarily forgets the flow of time around him to process these feelings. Those 30 seconds would bore the audience to death. Even at just 15 seconds, you're watching a pot boil, because of the nature of how time is perceived. And then maybe he attacks his enemy straight away, a rather patient villain who stood there staring at the samurai, for the exact same amount of time, off frame of the focus on the samurai's face twitching

About "inner drama" thing, I agree. But I think the concept can be implemented in a positive way that drives play forward, and not just navel gazing. Some examples I've seen are Pendragon (where the PCs' Virtues and Passions end up steering the adventures into conflicts about that stuff, making it personal), Blades in the Dark (where you Vices generate trouble between sessions that end up spilling into the missions proper), and Dogs in the Vineyard (that let's you "weaponize" old trauma). Personal drama must be actionable and conflict-generating, otherwise it's useless.

Edit: by the way, I remembered how the forge crowd called these: "Flags".

Bankuei has a good article about it here: https://bankuei.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/making-good-flags/

Well, Fiasco is something I'd give a chance later, as it's clearly not AD&D at all and doesn't try to accommodate that style. Fiasco is something I'd probably apply many of these story drivers from the other systems you've recommended.

RPG: "Player, what does your character do?"
Storygame: "Player its your turn tell the group about what your character did and what if anything is now a new fact in the world."

They're definitely not the type to gamble with their vanities...

Quote from: Wisithir on February 15, 2023, 12:38:07 AM
RPG: "Player, what does your character do?"
Storygame: "Player its your turn tell the group about what your character did and what if anything is now a new fact in the world."

Way to the lower the bar of the setting...

QuoteRPG: "Player, what does your character do?"
Storygame: "Player its your turn tell the group about what your character did and what if anything is now a new fact in the world."

Sometimes probably. But like my experience with SG RPGs (never played pure SG) never had such elements.
Furthest we go was when DM in Warhammer hacked asked us to describe details of our hometown (we played as siblings returning home for father's heresy trial), how various NPCs looked and so on. But yeah it was kinda tiresome for me.

Quote from: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: Wisithir on February 15, 2023, 12:38:07 AM
RPG: "Player, what does your character do?"
Storygame: "Player its your turn tell the group about what your character did and what if anything is now a new fact in the world."

Way to lower the bar of the setting...

I don't think setting is an important element in storygames. They tend to be explorations of situations, not setting. Like how in Dogs in the Vineyard what's important is how the PCs face the dilemmas present in the town, and not really how that town fits in the geopolitical situation of the world around.

Quote from: Itachi on February 18, 2023, 05:41:08 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: Wisithir on February 15, 2023, 12:38:07 AM
RPG: "Player, what does your character do?"
Storygame: "Player its your turn tell the group about what your character did and what if anything is now a new fact in the world."

Way to lower the bar of the setting...

I don't think setting is an important element in storygames. They tend to be explorations of situations, not setting. Like how in Dogs in the Vineyard what's important is how the PCs face the dilemmas present in the town, and not really how that town fits in the geopolitical situation of the world around.

Sure. That's why I don't run storygame-based systems. It's also why I think it requires less skill to run such systems because a good non-storygame run in sandbox mode should always have "situations" in play that are specific to the PC's both on an individual and party level. That friction and drama is what drives the game but based on the actions/inactions of the PC's.

This is precisely why I'm not a fan of BitD - it removes the potential play in lieu of the system by aggregating too much of the action into the workings of the system. It's not granular enough for me or my players to do much more expansive play for what I demand of my campaigns (which can expand *far* beyond the constraints and assumptions of BitD thematically).

Codifying play into the system renders the game more about "system-as-game" (and defacto less GM curation) than playing the actual game. Much like Monopoly (at the far end of the scale) pretends to be about pathological capitalism, but cartooned up in a family friendly game about rolling dice and moving around in a circle and playing musical chairs with bankruptcy.

I want more fidelity games which requires different demands of my mechanics.

Quote from: tenbones on February 22, 2023, 10:38:42 AMSure. That's why I don't run storygame-based systems. It's also why I think it requires less skill to run such systems because a good non-storygame run in sandbox mode should always have "situations" in play that are specific to the PC's both on an individual and party level. That friction and drama is what drives the game but based on the actions/inactions of the PC's.

Yes, I agree storygames usually require less skill from the GM, since part of his job is already built-in on the rules (which can be a bug or a feature depending on group preferences). Where I see the experience converging with old-school sandbox is in the creation of situations to challenge the characters, that emerged organically from their own choices and actions. Personally, this "character-driven" style is all I run these days, be with Beyond the Wall, Shadowrun, Dogs in the Vineyard or Blades in the Dark.   

Not to dismiss more linear or scripted playstyles though. I'm sure they have their audience. It's just not my thing for a long time now.

QuoteThis is precisely why I'm not a fan of BitD - it removes the potential play in lieu of the system by aggregating too much of the action into the workings of the system. It's not granular enough for me or my players to do much more expansive play for what I demand of my campaigns (which can expand *far* beyond the constraints and assumptions of BitD thematically).

Fair. I agree it's laser-focused scope can be limiting sometimes, even for the fans. Luckly, there's a lot of variations out there that manage to be broader/less focused in premise and rule (like Scum and Villany for eg).