I think some of the difficulty in defining "story gaming" comes form it being a two axis problem. Sandbox vs planned arc with end point and roleplaying vs storytelling, complicated by storytelling leaning on the sandbox side of the other axis due to a deliberate lack of planned path.

Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 10:45:01 AM
I'll add MSH to that list. A venerable game that predates any such notions of "storygaming". And as someone that runs Savage Worlds a *lot* I am a Sandbox GM to the bone and there is no *story* to any of my games. There are situations in-setting. The players interact with everything as they see fit.

I used to give some cache to the idea of Storygames... but now... I'm more of the notion that ANYONE that plays the system AS the game is missing the larger point of what TTRPGs could be.

This is what I was pointing out before but got shouted down in the usual deluge of denials and lies on both sides.

Bog standard TTRPGing has rules and story. Not the fucked up notion of story that storygamers concocted. But STORY you fucking morons. You know. The adventure you go on and the chronicle of the things you do? No? Of course not.

Missing the larger point is an understatement.

But problem is story gaming stopped having any semblance of sane meaning with the advent of storygamers who eventually push to get rid of the game part and its just storytelling. And they just have to fuck that up beyond all recognition too. Because of course they do. "Watching paint dry is storytelling!" "The meteor sitting on your desk tells a story!"

Then you have the cult of the sub-moron who do the same with with RPG and Role Playing. "Playing a board game is an RPG!" "Reading a book is Role Playing!"

Ad Jesus Wept Nausium.

Quote from: Wisithir on February 10, 2023, 11:10:31 PM
I think some of the difficulty in defining "story gaming" comes form it being a two axis problem. Sandbox vs planned arc with end point and roleplaying vs storytelling, complicated by storytelling leaning on the sandbox side of the other axis due to a deliberate lack of planned path.

It is more that storygaming as a term no longer has any meaning. Just like alot of other terms now. Steampunk? Thats another one warped out of shape.

And storygaming can and will lean far far away from sandbox and firmly into planned path or flat out railroading.

Roleplaying: Emerging story you tell AFTER the events, there's no plot.

Storygaming: Bullshit term invented by morons who think themselves Auteurs.

Quote from: Brad on February 10, 2023, 10:06:51 PM

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on October 15, 2022, 12:01:58 AM
I'm just curious what y'all would consider a "story game" or "story gaming". There seems to be no small amount of contempt for the concept among those in the OSR scene, but what qualifies?

Coming in like four months late but "story gaming" is just improv for people who couldn't cut it in the local theatre group. I play real roleplaying games, not trying to be the best at acting.

Real example: I do some stuff with my buddies in Vegas. Won't get into what it was due to legalities. Years pass, we still talk about those shenanigans, the stories, per se. We didn't intend to be complete fools, it just happened that way.

"It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn't. They kept going, because they were holding on to something. That there is some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for."

After you do stuff, the story is what you talk about later.

That speech by Sam, was most excellent.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on October 15, 2022, 12:01:58 AM
I'm just curious what y'all would consider a "story game" or "story gaming". There seems to be no small amount of contempt for the concept among those in the OSR scene, but what qualifies?

In broader terms I consider both story gaming and role-play gaming synonymous. In specific terms, storygaming is the stuff/ideas that came from the Forge. Which honestly, I also consider the same activity as roleplaying, only in different flavor, one that emphasizes more personal drama and shared narratives over action and task simulations.

In addition to mechanics, I think you have to consider intent.

In RPGs, you participate in an event/adventure. A "story" happens by accident. Like, I could tell you the "story" of how I got my job (it would bore you to tears), but my intent in getting a job is not creating a story. You participate by roleplaying, by definition.

In story games, the story is actually the goal. There is nothing wrong with storygames, I've played them as a child as I've played them with children. You do not even need an specific character; maybe each player tells a part of the story.

Now, there are many hybrid games/situations. When you ask a player to write about his PCs heritage, maybe with some GM input, this is not roleplaying, but story gaming. OSR focuses on roleplaying, which is why there little backstory, but there are many RPGs that are not like that (RPing is still the MAIN activity but there are storygaming moments/mechanics/etc.).

Another example: when you ask the PC "the monster is reduced to 0 HP, how do you kill it?" it is a story gaming moment. There is nothing wrong with that and sometimes can help you with immersion by forcing you to picture the scene, despite not being strictly roleplaying (as the PC wouldn't be able to choose specifically after he knows that the monster is slain, while every other hit was just "I attack"). I'll admit this is an edge case.

How you kill the monster would also be a roleplaying element, as you're following through on the victory according to the character's attitude towards that monster (including how the monster might be spared instead.)

A character's heritage/backstory in this way is also not storygaming, it's a guideline to roleplay that character. If you're an orphan from a village attacked by orcs, you might not think twice about killing a prone 0 HP orc. Unless you also stick with your NG alignment (another rp-guideline), and realize that the orc you were about to execute had nothing to do with the attack on your lost village (varying on however it is orcs are handled in your adventuring world).

I think there might be another mix up in terminology, its possible that they hear "emergent story" and get riled up about an apparent oxymoron ("It's in the dictionary that stories always have start-rise-end patterns that can also give a moral so you're using the word wrong and if you don't like that then you can go speak a different language!") Once you have an entertaining sequence of events that emerges from routine play, it's more accurate to call that record keeping than story telling; lore keeping would sound better for fantasy adventuring.

So then, you're creating a log book, a journal, a history, a diary of events in sequence, even a list of minutes, but none of that is a story if you can keep it all strictly to the economics of your gold and the notches on your scabbard of foes slain (with the odd bragging right), and nothing else. It's still a fictional log book/journal/history/diary of course, as it's not real (that much is understood, no?), and you still get talk of the glorious tales that you want out of it, but none of that is ultimately a *story.* Especially because of the tendency to refuse the slightest whiff of planning (and with that, I don't see why the GM doesn't roll randomly for terrain and climate in every hex, as drawing a map at all as preparation in the first place should be called out as railroading. In fact, roll randomly for dungeon rooms as the characters go deeper into the dungeon, never before hand, literally build the wizard's tower as you play, with each and every opened door. "Hang on guys, I know that you just walked through 5 broom closets and 7 alleyways, but I have to consult up to twelve tables and draw out the placing before we can continue.")

Maybe this sounds like splitting hairs to you, but I reckon that you'd like that bit of shrieking to stop, as headache meds can get expensive.

If the game allows you to control something in addition to your PC, it might be a story game.

Also, they suck.

You may only wildly cast spells, and illusions are now banned.

"Everything is storytelling! You're just too dumb to admit that the swine are right and that PbtA is the bestest game evaaaaaar!"

When I go fishing I'm not trying to tell a story about fishing, one MIGHT emerge if something interesting/fun happens or not. So, after enough fishing trips I might have several fising stories to tell.

I still didn't went trying to tell a story, I went to fish.

When the Roman soldiers went to the Gauls, they weren't trying to tell a story, neither were the centurions, the generals or the roman emperor, and yet stories were told on both sides AFTER the fact.

When we roleplay we're not telling a story, we're making HISTORY, our PCs, the NPCs and even ourselves MIGHT tell stories of our PCs exploits. We still weren't telling a story while playing (Unless you're dumb and think EVERYTHING is telling a story).

We've hashed out this same discussion before, it's useless because the would be Auteurs don't understand logic or words.

The more that I read about the problems with PbtA, the more that I realize that I've been trolled by the one guy I've come across promoting it.

PbtA had a novelty allure in the meanwhile to now, but it's never been something I've put on a pedestal.
You just assume that, because I mentioned it whatsoever, and I ask questions about what can be appropriated from it.

It's such a niche within a niche within a niche that I never had any expectations of ever playing it, not least because I've had too much other far more serious bullshit to deal with than your precious nerd cred.

Forget leftism for five minutes, set aside our God given right to say the "gamer words" on the internet or to whinge about the real problems with feminism: Your sanctimonious domineering is probably what drove them that direction and there's no convincing the almighty that is yourself otherwise, because you are never in fact wrong and don't ever in fact make mistakes.

It's one thing to stop using their words, its another to give them the wiggle room they need to recruit more gamers that shouldn't even be there.

Its that fucking simple.

If your goal is to get me to cancel myself because you're so shit at asking basic clarifications of someone's intent, you shouldn't be wondering how the screaming swine herds get fed.

And if you're that fucking tired of PbtA discussion, write a FAQ.

Or, keep wallowing in this asinine debate again and again and again, as you seem to be just as happy in a different colour of mud.
Because you doing any actual work is not your fucking responsibility, even though you know absolutely more than anybody else.

You're not telling a fucking story, because its plain as day by what you say you want (what economists call "revealed preference.")
I don't fucking like story games, or I'd be in their lame and stunted feel-good boards coping for their virtue simps.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 11:14:11 AM
When we roleplay we're not telling a story, we're making HISTORY, our PCs, the NPCs and even ourselves MIGHT tell stories of our PCs exploits. We still weren't telling a story while playing (Unless you're dumb and think EVERYTHING is telling a story).

What was so confusing about what I've just posted that you need to say exactly what I just said?
I guess you don't glean any history from journals and diaries! Sorry guys! My autism clearly makes me fully retarded, or I would have known that! I would have said "history books" instead of a few specific instances of "history books" that are most congruous with the very concept of roleplay! DEEEEERRRRPPP!

Clearly, my autism is substandard to your own though. Such a champion. Very grand. So kingly.

Basic incel shit to the T. The purest cranky fuckery.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 11, 2023, 11:45:31 AM
The more that I read about the problems with PbtA, the more that I realize that I've been trolled by the one guy I've come across promoting it.

PbtA had a novelty allure in the meanwhile to now, but it's never been something I've put on a pedestal.
You just assume that, because I mentioned it whatsoever, and I ask questions about what can be appropriated from it.

It's such a niche within a niche within a niche that I never had any expectations of ever playing it, not least because I've had too much other far more serious bullshit to deal with than your precious nerd cred.

Forget leftism for five minutes, set aside our God given right to say the "gamer words" on the internet or to whinge about the real problems with feminism: Your sanctimonious domineering is probably what drove them that direction and there's no convincing the almighty that is yourself otherwise, because you are never in fact wrong and don't ever in fact make mistakes.

It's one thing to stop using their words, its another to give them the wiggle room they need to recruit more gamers that shouldn't even be there.

Its that fucking simple.

If your goal is to get me to cancel myself because you're so shit at asking basic clarifications of someone's intent, you shouldn't be wondering how the screaming swine herds get fed.

And if you're that fucking tired of PbtA discussion, write a FAQ.

Or, keep wallowing in this asinine debate again and again and again, as you seem to be just as happy in a different colour of mud.
Because you doing any actual work is not your fucking responsibility, even though you know absolutely more than anybody else.

You're not telling a fucking story, because its plain as day by what you say you want (what economists call "revealed preference.")
I don't fucking like story games, or I'd be in their lame and stunted feel-good boards coping for their virtue simps.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 11:14:11 AM
When we roleplay we're not telling a story, we're making HISTORY, our PCs, the NPCs and even ourselves MIGHT tell stories of our PCs exploits. We still weren't telling a story while playing (Unless you're dumb and think EVERYTHING is telling a story).

What was so confusing about what I've just posted that you need to say exactly what I just said?
I guess you don't glean any history from journals and diaries! Sorry guys! My autism clearly makes me fully retarded, or I would have known that! I would have said "history books" instead of a few specific instances of "history books" that are most congruous with the very concept of roleplay! DEEEEERRRRPPP!

Clearly, my autism is substandard to your own though. Such a champion. Very grand. So kingly.

Basic incel shit to the T. The purest cranky fuckery.

First of Champ I AM AUTISTIC, got a problem with that?

Next, you swear you're not enamored with storytelling games but then you write spiels about how drawing a map or preparing the campaign/encounter in advance in any way is railroading.

Then you Reeeeeeeeeeeee about how we calling things what they are and not bending the knee to their BS is what caused them to turn to their shitty games. Guess you need a history lesson, no, it wasn't like that these guys HATE TTRPGs, they especially hate D&D, tried to make it into a storygame, then one of them realized it wasn't working and wrote about it. Guess we should just have rolled over, shown our bellies so they didn't go and create shit like PbtA.

To top it all Incel? Really? But you're totally not an SJW right? FYI I'm about to celebrate 25 years of marital bliss and have a son.

So, no, none of your points lands, you're just another plant trying to convince us we should cede just a little bit of linguistic terrain so they can stop hating our guts. Not gonna happen princess, the swine (and you if you're really not one of them and are just dumber than a bag of rocks) can go pound sand.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 12:34:56 PM
First of Champ I AM AUTISTIC, got a problem with that?

That would be very hypocritical of me, wouldn't it?

Quote
Next, you swear you're not enamored with storytelling games but then you write spiels about how drawing a map or preparing the campaign/encounter in advance in any way is railroading.

You've called everything I've suggested under the sun to be railroading, so I can't take your opinions seriously, so you get the lampoon.

Quote
Then you Reeeeeeeeeeeee about how we calling things what they are and not bending the knee to their BS is what caused them to turn to their shitty games. Guess you need a history lesson, no, it wasn't like that these guys HATE TTRPGs, they especially hate D&D, tried to make it into a storygame, then one of them realized it wasn't working and wrote about it. Guess we should just have rolled over, shown our bellies so they didn't go and create shit like PbtA.

Gee golly wilkers, what even IS a thread history? Its not like you picked this fight to start with.

I asked:
"Hey, what if the players need to address how the undead didn't collapse after the first necromancer? Maybe there is a second?"

You:
"REEEEEEEEEEEE THE UNDEAD ARE SPAWNED FROM NAUGHTY CATHOLICS JIZZING IN SOCKS AND YOUR RAILROADING!"

Do I have to specify every fucking time where any suggestion would work and where it wouldn't so that you can calm you rage boner?
Do your flailing surgey tits obscure your imaginative third eye?

Quote
So, no, none of your points lands, you're just another plant trying to convince us we should cede just a little bit of linguistic terrain so they can stop hating our guts. Not gonna happen princess, the swine (and you if you're really not one of them and are just dumber than a bag of rocks) can go pound sand.

Yes, I totally said that we should call everything story games, and that is not remotely a delusional take.
I do envy your capacity for literacy, I enjoy nothing less than to be such a brain dead boomer who burned his brain out at Woodstock as you.

But, since you've consented to my word as binding law on all of these matters, and to reward you as the grateful pleb that you are, I hereby proclaim the validity of all meta-currency mechanics as the only viable method of any roleplaying games, which must be doled out as faster than an American dollar in Zimbabwe and counted out to the quarter-penny; and also that you must do the hokey-pokey before declaring any character actions and the rhyme must be spoken in Pig Latin Esperanto!

Interestingly, I see that a lot of folks from the old storygaming/Forge crowd, or modern adherents of that culture, actually play and like OD&D/OSR. I think their problem was with "traditional" gaming as seen in the 90s, which incentivized GMs to bring their pre-written stories to railroad players through.

In this sense, storygaming culture aligns pretty well with the OSR and their "rulings over rules" and "don't prep plots", etc. They differ in some details, but the overarching goal is the same: play a game where adventures emerge and are decided by players decisions, and not GM fiat or writer wannabe impulses.