In another thread where we're discussing about no suck things as "broken" mechanics (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17734), I brought up Rule Zero, i.e. modify the rules to suit your needs however you please, as a specificity of role playing games.
I was then told that it isn't actually anything special about RPGs. People make variants of board games all the time, so Rule Zero, whether it's actually printed on the rulebook or not, doesn't seem to be it for some people.
The same sort of thing occured when discussing immersion, playing a character, and well... it happens on pretty much every topic.
Which leaves me wondering in the end. Is ANYTHING "special" about RPGs to you?
What is this thing that RPGs do that other games do not, from your POV? Anything at all?
For me, it's the feeling that the players are exploring new ground, that something new is constantly being created, and that one's fellow players are not the enemy, but companions to be relied upon. Board games rarely provide such feelings, and videogames only provide them to a limited extent.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;393372For me, it's the feeling that the players are exploring new ground, that something new is constantly being created, and that one's fellow players are not the enemy, but companions to be relied upon. Board games rarely provide such feelings, and videogames only provide them to a limited extent.
I don't think of any of these things as specific to RPGs. At all, actually. :hmm:
Oh. You mean like exploration within the game as it is being played? And players who are not adversaries but teammates to solve whatever problem comes along the way?
I think I might have misunderstood the post.
There are no limits.
Escape from Colditz is a great game, when I play all my little counters have names and different prefered methods of escape but when they get away they can't join the resistance and mount guerilla war against the Nazis.
When we encounter a band of goblins we don't need to fight them we can negotiate, cut a deal.
When I rescue the princess I can cut her throat and feed her to my dogs.
Now you can do this in literature but in literature it's just you writing there is no sense of immediate feedback, in an RPG, even an online RPG the world exists beyond you so you get feedback and the world sets the framework for you to work in.
No other genre of entertainment does this.
It's why my own personal defintion of Role-playing games includes storygames and Larps and all that other marginal crap but has a problem with MMOs and the like because the boundaries of the world are too narrow
It's the feeling of authorship of an exhilerating story, the thrill of narrative control over things other then my character, and the satisfaction of having the plot succeed as planned beforehand.
Oh wait...
Quote from: Benoist;393373I think I might have misunderstood the post.
I think so.
This strikes me as one of those questions that, no matter how many answers are provided, none will be deemed right. I've had teachers and professors who used the same kind of rhetorical style. After a short time it feels useless to answer at all.
Hello All! First post from a long time lurker :o
IMO the most intriguing aspects of role playing games and what sets them apart from other styles of games are as follows...
The process of feedback/creation.
The challenge of maintaining verisimilitude in setting/atmosphere and character as the process unfolds.
Sharing a wacky/dramatic time with friends (as well as strangers) and seeing the various approaches to gaming.I am sure we all have heard some very cool and funny exchanges at the table (or wherever) as well as some awesome modeling/drawing/speaking skills that add to the depth.
Using the mind in a new and expansive way while stretching the limits of (my) memorization skills. Oh what a failing to resort to notes...:rolleyes:
All of the above add up to one hell of a great time :hatsoff:!
Well, I'm trying to understand what you guys see as "special" in a role playing game that is not like ANY game out there. Something that makes you like RPGs as opposed to say... free form acting, Warhammer 40K or writing collaborative novels on websites.
Because if there isn't really anything special about RPGs... what's the point?
Quote from: skofflox;393380Hello All
Welcome to de-lurk mode, skofflox! :D
jibbajibba's got it right.
The hallmark of a role-playing game, to me, is that one can do whatever one damn well pleases (and cope with the consequences).
For the short time I played WoW, I hated the "Razorpork are stealing our women! Kill 8 Razorpork Bloodthingies" quests. What if I, a lone rogue, don't want to kill the fuckers? What if I'd rather ally with them against the chieftain, or dupe them into attacking the human stronghold across the fucking road from their lairs?
Which is why I can't be arsed with MMOs, at least as long as I have a regular gaming group.
Quote from: Benoist;393381Because if there isn't really anything special about RPGs... what's the point?
I love you man, but I feel you're overthinking this "what are RPGs" crap.
Who needs a "point"? The point is that RPGs are fun, period, full stop. It's an unbridled exercise in imagination, given structure by way of rules, but still far more open than board games, or CCGs, or videogames or what have you.
Quote from: The Butcher;393384I love you man, but I feel you're overthinking this "what are RPGs" crap.
Who needs a "point"? The point is that RPGs are fun, period, full stop. It's an unbridled exercise in imagination, given structure by way of rules, but still far more open than board games, or CCGs, or videogames or what have you.
I probably am overthinking it, you're right.
My semi-coherent answer.
People sharing their creativity and imagination in a transitory environment. People can "collaborate" on a book or a piece of media, and there's something tangible left after it's over. With an RPG, the games most often become a memory and a story to tell to others, from which everyone takes something different -- whether it's "I explored this character's personality" or "I rolled a 20 and totally killed that guy."
While I don't think RPGing is like theater, I think the experience can be very similar to seeing a live performance -- you can't re-watch the DVD or re-experience the game. It's one time only.
Quote from: Benoist;393382Welcome to de-lurk mode, skofflox! :D
Thank you very much...:D
Perhaps it is the ability to bring ALL of the above into a RPG according to ones proclivities that sets them apart.
For example Benoist mentions a type of theatre as being similar...can you bust out a 25mm, detailed to the max personalized model on stage and have it be an integral part of the experience as well as helping the tactician next to you plan the best approach...? It is the ability to mix all these things and bring something truly personal to the experience that, IMO, sets these games apart from other media.
or something like that...:idunno:
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;393390My semi-coherent answer.
People sharing their creativity and imagination in a transitory environment. People can "collaborate" on a book or a piece of media, and there's something tangible left after it's over. With an RPG, the games most often become a memory and a story to tell to others, from which everyone takes something different -- whether it's "I explored this character's personality" or "I rolled a 20 and totally killed that guy."
While I don't think RPGing is like theater, I think the experience can be very similar to seeing a live performance -- you can't re-watch the DVD or re-experience the game. It's one time only.
YEAH...*That is* an ingredient of the awesome sauce that gives RPG's a distinctive flavor! Great response...;)
Quote from: jibbajibba;393376There are no limits.
Escape from Colditz is a great game, when I play all my little counters have names and different prefered methods of escape but when they get away they can't join the resistance and mount guerilla war against the Nazis.
When we encounter a band of goblins we don't need to fight them we can negotiate, cut a deal.
When I rescue the princess I can cut her throat and feed her to my dogs.
Now you can do this in literature but in literature it's just you writing there is no sense of immediate feedback, in an RPG, even an online RPG the world exists beyond you so you get feedback and the world sets the framework for you to work in.
No other genre of entertainment does this.
It's why my own personal defintion of Role-playing games includes storygames and Larps and all that other marginal crap but has a problem with MMOs and the like because the boundaries of the world are too narrow
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/4f3ba4f3-55d0-44b7-9114-325a3f928bb3.jpg)
LOLsnark aside, jibbajibba has the right of it.
And Benoist, you are overthinking this one. :)
To me I play RPGs for the boundless opportunities and choices the players can make. The whole serendipitous nature of what happens at the table is what I love.
"The sum of the whole is greater than its parts"
Insufficient Metal's response is similar to mine. The act of discovering a character in play, alongside the elements of performance and collaborative creativity, all bound by a structure of rules, with elements of randomization inserted in create something very unique to RPGs. To me it's the weird hybridization of collaborative art and game that make RPGs special, and unlike anything else.
Quote from: The Butcher;393384Who needs a "point"? The point is that RPGs are fun, period, full stop.
Hells yeah. Fun is point enough for me.
Quote from: skofflox;393380Hello All! First post from a long time lurker
Fuck you, go back to lurking. The adults are talking. :)
Consider yourself officially welcomed! Go start some threads.
Quote from: Spinachcat;393406Hells yeah. Fun is point enough for me.
Fuck you, go back to lurking. The adults are talking. :)
Consider yourself officially welcomed! Go start some threads.
Oh my petal soft feelings...and if that is the way "adults" talk count me forever young! ;)
does this reply constitute derailing :confused:
if so sorry, I'll get back to my lurking...
Quote from: skofflox;393408Oh my petal soft feelings...and if that is the way "adults" talk count me forever young! ;)
does this reply constitute derailing :confused:
if so sorry, I'll get back to my lurking...
Nah you're doing good. Troll some more. :D ;)
Quote from: Benoist;393367What is this thing that RPGs do that other games do not, from your POV? Anything at all?
Two things, mainly.
First, as a GM, it allows me to create a setting or milieu, a unique environment for the players.
Second, for the players... It allows them to create their own unique story with as much or as little plot as they care to have, with as much or as little drama as they care to include, and mostly, it's about the story that they collectively create.
No two player groups will create the same story or adventure. Ever.
The same group will never create the same story, even if the GM uses the exact same module or adventure as before.
It's unique. It's creative. It's driven by the group at the table, the GM and the players together.
No other games do this, and most game can't even come close to the depth and scope that a single tabletop RPG game session can cover.
---
Robin Law's gaming Styles (http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/Fashion/ellydragon/laws-game-style/#)
GameDaddy Scored as Storyteller.
GameDaddy is more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. GD is quick to compromise if he can help move the story forward, and gets bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. He prefers to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director.Storyteller 83%, Method Actor 75%, Specialist 58%, Tactician 50%, Butt-Kicker 42%, Power Gamer 42%, Casual Gamer 33%
I like having a character with quantifiable skills -- a character that can accomplish things within his sphere(s) of experience independent of my own skill or acting ability. And I like the element of surprise created by dice(or other randomizer) in conjunction with the above. You may have an 80% chance to succeed at a certain task, but you never know when that 20% failure rate will kick in. It keeps things exciting. But again, only in conjunction with the first part. "Will he or will he not convince the Duke that it's in his best interest to negotiate a peaceful resolution?" is much more exciting than "Will I land on Baltic Avenue or Chance?"
I dunno, I never thought about it. I guess it's being able to act like a kid and a grown up all at once :)
You get to make a motherfucking UNIVERSE, and bring it to life.
RPGpundit
Quote from: jibbajibba;393376There are no limits.
Escape from Colditz is a great game, when I play all my little counters have names and different prefered methods of escape but when they get away they can't join the resistance and mount guerilla war against the Nazis.
When we encounter a band of goblins we don't need to fight them we can negotiate, cut a deal.
When I rescue the princess I can cut her throat and feed her to my dogs.
Now you can do this in literature but in literature it's just you writing there is no sense of immediate feedback, in an RPG, even an online RPG the world exists beyond you so you get feedback and the world sets the framework for you to work in.
No other genre of entertainment does this.
It's why my own personal defintion of Role-playing games includes storygames and Larps and all that other marginal crap but has a problem with MMOs and the like because the boundaries of the world are too narrow
Quote from: RPGPundit;393462You get to make a motherfucking UNIVERSE, and bring it to life.
RPGpundit
This and this.
For me it's a creative outlet. I've always felt that creative urge, that drive to create characters, situations and bad fiction. I guess it's the sort of thing you've eithered experienced yourself or you have not idea what I am talking about.
Back in school I was always drawing comic strips (usually for the school mag but I even got a run on a proper newspaper) and writing short stories but who's got the time for that now?
Roleplaying games allow me to scratch that itch in a way that is fun, social and neatly structured. I could get most of those from playing bridge, which used to be main hobby, but it's not a crerative outlet. That is what makes rolepalying games special to me.
Quote from: Benoist;393367Is ANYTHING "special" about RPGs to you?
What is this thing that RPGs do that other games do not, from your POV? Anything at all?
The juxtaposition, intersection, or, hell, head-on collision between story elements, choice, and the rules.
Seanchai
Nothing specific about rpgs is all that special but the way it all comes together is special. Someone can create a universe and put that into a book, tv show, or movie. But RPGs have players interacting directly with that universe making it their own. Your universe may vary.
Quote from: Benoist;393367Which leaves me wondering in the end. Is ANYTHING "special" about RPGs to you?
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Quote from: winkingbishop;393596To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their Wonder Women.
Fixed your typo. :p
Quote from: jeff37923;393604Fixed your typo. :p
It's a good thing for Wonder Woman that Kal-El wasn't born in Cimmeria.
Quote from: CRKrueger;393611It's a good thing for Wonder Woman that Kal-El wasn't born in Cimmeria.
Man, I'm not much of a comics geek, but if someone wrote that comic, I'd totally read it.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;393613Man, I'm not much of a comics geek, but if someone wrote that comic, I'd totally read it.
Ditto.
1) Social hobby.
2) No limits (except those imposed by 1, 3, 4, 5).
3) You are your character.
4) There is an objective fictional world.
5) Randomization.
6) Gimmicks. Tactical combat, resource management, levelling up, etc.
Quote from: jeff37923;393604Fixed your typo. :p
My bad :) For what it's worth, I think the Wonder Woman thing here is funny, but the image I REALLY want keeps putting my anti-virus into a seizure. I'll just let the thing slide.
Anyway, I think this thread might be unnecessarily cerebral. Role playing games are special by their definition. You have players controlling characters that they created and
a referee that responds, dynamically, to their actions.
I'm sure there are similarities between RPGs and other media, but the bolded text , to me, is what makes an RPG special and can't be simulated. Maybe some other types of games would fall into that category too (storygames?) but I don't really think this thread is an appropriate place to split those hairs.
Quote from: winkingbishop;393596To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Ahhh yeah....none of that wind in the hair crap, thats for losers...:worship:
Is "They're fun" a circular statement?
Quote from: winkingbishop;393626My bad :) For what it's worth, I think the Wonder Woman thing here is funny, but the image I REALLY want keeps putting my anti-virus into a seizure. I'll just let the thing slide.
Heh, send me a link, I'll get it for you from a lab computer at work.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;393807Is "They're fun" a circular statement?
Not really, but it's a fairly personal one.
What I wanted to point out is that they don't
have to have any one trait to set them apart from all other forms of entertainment, to be fun. They don't need to have a "point", other than being fun to play and run.
What's special about RPGs?
You can act outside of the box.
If we ever get holodecks or computer powered RPGs that can do what pen and paper can do, then I think I'm DONE with pen and paper.
Because the least special thing about pen and paper RPGs is the crapload of work a GM has to do in order to make them sing. For now, it is usually worth that work. But if a medium comes along that gives us the free form of pen and paper with computer images and computer assisted preparation, then pen and paper RPGs won't be so special any more.
YMMV
holodecks would be co-opted by the porn industry within a matter of minutes.
Quote from: two_fishes;393935holodecks would be co-opted by the porn industry within a matter of minutes.
Sure. But they couldn't have control of ALL of them. :)
I give another vote for jibbajabba's statement. One might say that the difference between an RPG and a computer game is that in an RPG you can argue with the computer.
Quote from: PaladinCA;393939Sure. But they couldn't have control of ALL of them. :)
They will
when I'm elected...
Quote from: PaladinCA;393934What's special about RPGs?
You can act outside of the box.
If we ever get holodecks or computer powered RPGs that can do what pen and paper can do, then I think I'm DONE with pen and paper.
It'd have to be a holodeck that could take what I imagine as the scene in my head, and instantly make it a reality. It'd have to be mind-link holodeck technology. Before that, at most, the holodeck would just be another audio-visual aid.
RPGPundit
Quote from: two_fishes;393935holodecks would be co-opted by the porn industry within a matter of minutes.
Co-opted? I assume they'll be the ones who invent it. And good on them. Like I said, holodecks for RPG purposes still have the same problem that computer-online-worlds have, I'd have to learn how to program the fucking things and then make each little painstaking detail. I don't run a muck right now because its too much work, imagine if with the holodeck you'd have to add in every single fucking tree, bird, city street, etc.
The only way it'd work for "finally surpassing the RPG" would be if it could take what I see in my head and instantly project it into reality with no work on my part.
Meanwhile, and until then, I'll be glad to use the Holodeck to have Deep Meaningful Relationships with particularly sexy computer programs.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;394060Co-opted? I assume they'll be the ones who invent it. And good on them. Like I said, holodecks for RPG purposes still have the same problem that computer-online-worlds have, I'd have to learn how to program the fucking things and then make each little painstaking detail. I don't run a muck right now because its too much work, imagine if with the holodeck you'd have to add in every single fucking tree, bird, city street, etc.
The only way it'd work for "finally surpassing the RPG" would be if it could take what I see in my head and instantly project it into reality with no work on my part.
Meanwhile, and until then, I'll be glad to use the Holodeck to have Deep Meaningful Relationships with particularly sexy computer programs.
RPGPundit
You are missing a trick and still thinking like a GM.
In the Holodeck world an AI would create and render the world and you would be a player. GMs would be the guys that design WoW dungeons now.
To be a GM you would indeed need to master the tech but further into the future even that can be manged down to .."give me a wooden glen, no a bit darker, okay, can we put a grassy mound over her and then stick a gate in it. Right first room.. " etc.. so designg your dungeon would be in a Walk-through gui interface when you would select stuff from a voice activated menu and you could see how it looked as you did it. Likewise in play the GM would be able to mod the dungeon adding and removing stuff via a voice activated link.
Should be a blast, roll on 2058....
AI holoventures...RPG,porno...I see some serious genre mixing there! :p
How would Exp. be handled hmmmm....?
Quote from: skofflox;394089AI holoventures...RPG,porno...I see some serious genre mixing there! :p
How would Exp. be handled hmmmm....?
Niven wrote a book covering this very subject...