I should like to stop arguing and maybe contribute some discussion. :D This came up in those arguments and I feel it's worth discussing.
What is so unique about RPGs?
My stance: People get together for make-believe that is largely in the control of the participants. It's not like reading a script for a play or a video game with scripted choices. It's not one of those mystery plays with the DVD where you play one of the chapters at each choice. It's people acting in character, acting as the bad guys, reacting to each other and literally editing the world around as they see fit. Sure, some of us like our editing to lean on the cinematic side where some of us may prefer more of a simulation of a genre or setting, but it's all make-believe. It's not day-dreaming per se, but collaboratively day-dreaming shit up together.
Going into a board game or card game or video game (admittedly I don't play many...) you have some ideas on what to expect. I think RPGs present an opportunity to participate in something unexpected. More so, I think the fun comes from the strange mixture of having that control yet not knowing where each reaction or choice will finally take you.
How about you? What do you find unique about RPGs?
Rules without competition between players.
4 sided dice
They cause a bunch of 40-50 year old men to enter frothing at the mouth rages on the internet if they decide you're not playing pretend elves correctly?
Quote from: Marleycat;755479They cause a bunch of 40-50 year old men to enter frothing at the mouth rages on the internet if they decide you're not playing pretend elves correctly?
They do that in board games too...
Quote from: Omega;755486They do that in board games too...
Hmm..seriously I got nothing because it's really just an excuse to hang out with my friends when all is said and done. Because boardgames have dice so that's right out.... .
Quote from: trechriron;755446What is so unique about RPGs?
How about you? What do you find unique about RPGs?
The rules of an RPG allow the participants, Players and GM, to create everything in the playing environment where the playing occurs. You can use pre-generated material (settings, characters, opponents, etc.) but the open-ended nature of the rules allows the participants to tailor how they interact with the game, either through the creating process or the playing process, which creates a tremendous amount of personal freedom in play.
Now lets see if you can do more than troll.
Quote from: Omega;755486They do that in board games too...
Oh gods... Some of the worst freak-outs and bad behavior I've seen were at Battletech tables at conventions. I've stopped shooting at one mech to turn all my weapons on another, further away, mech just to get the player out of the game.
Quote from: Marleycat;755479They cause a bunch of 40-50 year old men to enter frothing at the mouth rages on the internet if they decide you're not playing pretend elves correctly?
This brings win to the thread.
BTT The immersive environment, cooperative action/play, openness and control? Yeah, I got nothing.
Quote from: Marleycat;755479They cause a bunch of 40-50 year old men to enter frothing at the mouth rages on the internet if they decide you're not playing pretend elves correctly?
She knows, brothers! SHE KNOWS!!(http://scarsmagazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers.jpg)
The ability to interact with a fictional universe in any manner imaginable and consistent with the game's premise.
everyone contributes to a shared narrative
no set end point, or "win" condition
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755518everyone contributes to a shared narrative
no set end point, or "win" condition
Hilariously this was one of the reasons board gamers were arguing that RPGs were not "real games" way back. There was no competition and no "winner" or even an "end".
What is unique to an RPG?
Predominantly its freeform nature and improv nature. Even the most railroady of modules still allows you some freedom of choice.
And the world reacts to the players. You can do the unexpected and be creative in solving problems. And the unexpected can happen to you.
You can talk to NPCs. You can negotiate with monsters. You can make enemies your friends and none of it is scripted into the program when done right.
These are things no board game or PC game can cover in the same way an RPG can.
Mm, the OP didn't quite get it right. There's nothing unique about unscripted roleplaying, staying in character: improvisational actors have been doing that since acting was invented, and they've even done that under the subtle control of a "director" or "stage manager" or "conductor," whatever you want to call it.
It's in the continuity -- that whatever the improv troupe comes up with carries over to (and shapes) the next session, and the next one after that.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755518everyone contributes to a shared narrative
no set end point, or "win" condition
Oh noes, you said the n word. Clearly you're a charop-obsessed Ron Edwards forger with an obsession about telling stories about combat grids, absolute fair balance, and letting characters have whatever they want while FOLLOWING THE EXACT LETTER OF EVERY RULE EVER PUBLISHED EVER AND NOT LETTING THE GM HAVE ANY CREATIVITY and covering the table in bennies, custom dice, and social justice.
Did I get everything, there? I'd hate to feel I missed a group out.
Anyway.
What makes RPG's unique? The freedom. You're not constrained to a few pre-set options at any point in the game. Books are cool, but there's no choices there; gamebooks are cool, but the choices are very limited; computer games are cool, but they're very much bound by their rule set.
RPG's? None of the above, really.
What makes rpg's special to me has to be the sheer creativity is allows.
Combined with the social interaction it just rules.
I love a good game of risk, wargames, scrabble, monopoly, etc..but pen and paper rpg's beat all of them for my personal enjoyment.
I'll break down what makes an RPG unique. Actually, I'll just break down what makes an RPG different than a typical "game". These answers are set out as if RPGs were being described as "a game", and the question is "what makes RPGs different than a 'regular game'."
1) The ability to customize your playing piece in the game. A character might even be assigned, but you play them as you want, inject character into the playing piece, and get to guide that's playing piece's growth.
2) Rules are present (usually) to guide possibilities in play, rather than lay out the inherent flow of the game. In Monopoly, you proceed around the track laid out. In Descent, you move your tokens through a maze. In D&D, the environment is present, and you use rules to arbitrate the choices the player makes, which are infinite.
3) It assumes a common understanding of reality. The playing pieces are "real people in their world", the environment "works like it should", even where that's not laid out.
4) It requires one player to act as the game master, who presents the situation to the rest of the players, usually keeping "unknown" elements secret. This game master acts as referee, a story guide / director, and creative content manager all in one.
5) It's amateur. People engage in this at a hobby level, for the most part, unpaid. It is done for entertainment / fun value.
6) It is continuous. Most playing groups play the same pieces from game to game, engaging in a campaign that is like a story, continuing until some real life situation ends the coherency of the group or they choose to do something else. All role-playing games assume the players will play the game over a series of sessions, and do (at minimum) small campaigns.
7) It involves drama. In Fury of Dracula, the player running Dracula might insert bits of Dracula impersonations while having fun, but there is no need to. In an RPG, it is assumed that the game master is, at least, acting to characterize the fictional persons of the game world, and this is necessary. As well, players are taking on the role of their playing piece, be that as an invisible controller or deep immersion akin to method acting.
8) There is no scoring. While playing pieces grow, and this is part of the enjoyment, it is not "the point of the game". There is no winner. An RPG is there to gather a group of players together, share the game experience, and walk away having been entertained. A narrative of sorts, following lucky / amusing characters can also be generated from RPG (a story of sorts). At the end of a campaign, however, no one player is declared "winner", and praise if more often given for 'fun play' over 'amassing character progression' (ie: experience, treasure, power).
There's likely more I could add, but I think this covers it.
Quote from: Marleycat;755479They cause a bunch of 40-50 year old men to enter frothing at the mouth rages on the internet if they decide you're not playing pretend elves correctly?
This is absolute bullshit. I can't believe you would even say this. That is just so ignorant and honestly, I expect better of you.
I'm 30, thank you very much.
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;7556031) The ability to customize your playing piece in the game.
This is an important one for me. Your character isn't just a playing piece; they're a person, living in the world, with their own mannerisms, hopes, goals, opinions, etc.
You can pretend that in board games and computer games, but it's never quite the same, because there's nothing to back it up - the game mechanics make you the same as every other character of your type, and you can't go outside of those personality lines.
In an RPG?
There are no lines.
To me it has long been the ability to try anything you want in the game. In a board game, I have to stay on the board withnin the confines of the rules. In a video game I can push more, but am still bound within whatever the programmers have put into place. In an RPG I can attempt anything my character could reasonably achieve. That is what makes me feel like I am there in a way I just never got with books or movies.
Uh Oh. The N word.
Narrative! Narrative! Narrative!
I find it interesting that the word's meaning shifts dramatically when applied as an intentional thing, as opposed to being viewed as a result.
But surely you can makeup a character in improv acting, you get continuity reading and episodic story in a comic or watching a TV show, you get to act in large freeform fictionalised universe if you write fan fic, you get to model real world physics using dice etc on a table top war game.
So what is the edge that RPGs have that say you can't get from writing shared fan fic on a Harry Potter forum. Or maybe that is an RPG as well.......
Quote from: Bill;755621Uh Oh. The N word.
Narrative! Narrative! Narrative!
I find it interesting that the word's meaning shifts dramatically when applied as an intentional thing, as opposed to being viewed as a result.
Well, I think there's a clear distinction that should be made to clarify the proper context. Narrative can apply to several different things. When I'm using it, I don't mean everyone sits around in a circle and tells a story about what they want to happen with each of their characters. I mean the story is generated from the result of the game play and actions of the PCs and results of the die rolls.
That is, much less this:
"Hagar
will venture into the Caves of Chaos, where he will slay the ogre with a lucky mighty blow, and rescue the prisoners from the evil bugbears!"
and more of this:
"Hagar
ventured into the Caves of Chaos, where he got a critical hit at the right moment just as the ogre was wiping out the rest of his party, slaying him. He then found himself in the bugear lair where he and his friends freed the slaves."
What is so unique about chairs?
Like Jibba said, what makes RPGs unique is the role playing. You're expected to perform a personality shift and then interact with the rules of a game in concert with others who are also personality shifted.
So it isn't just "pretend to be someone else", but closer to "pretend to be someone else and play poker the same way they would".
"I'm bluffing on this hand because that's what my character would do."
That actually sounds like an awesome poker night!
Have you ever watched a film or TV programme and said "Why did they do that?" or "I wouldn't do that"? Gave you ever wondered what it would be like to live in olden times, or on a moonbase? Have you every wanted to be Robin Hood, King Arthur or one of the Three Musketeers? If so, then play a RPG and see what you would do.
It's a way to explore a character, a world, a set of beliefs, a story within a framework that makes it challenging, exciting and fun. It can be a one-off experience or a series, with as much detail as you want, or don't want.
It's a fun way of spending 4 hours a week.
Quote from: mcbobbo;755639Like Jibba said, what makes RPGs unique is the role playing. You're expected to perform a personality shift and then interact with the rules of a game in concert with others who are also personality shifted.
So it isn't just "pretend to be someone else", but closer to "pretend to be someone else and play poker the same way they would".
"I'm bluffing on this hand because that's what my character would do."
That actually sounds like an awesome poker night!
But that is the way I do everything :D
Quote from: Ravenswing;755541...
It's in the continuity -- that whatever the improv troupe comes up with carries over to (and shapes) the next session, and the next one after that.
Fantastic point! I agree.
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;755603...
There's likely more I could add, but I think this covers it.
Awesome description. Well said.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;755605This is absolute bullshit. I can't believe you would even say this. That is just so ignorant and honestly, I expect better of you.
I'm 30, thank you very much.
*Badump bump spash*. The Emperor will be here all week folks, don't forget to tip the moderators!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755631That is, much less this:
"Hagar will venture into the Caves of Chaos, where he will slay the ogre with a lucky mighty blow, and rescue the prisoners from the evil bugbears!"
and more of this:
"Hagar ventured into the Caves of Chaos, where he got a critical hit at the right moment just as the ogre was wiping out the rest of his party, slaying him. He then found himself in the bugear lair where he and his friends freed the slaves."
Agreed.
Strangely, most "storygames" are far more the latter than the former. The former is really the focus of 80s/90s railroad games (and, to a certain extent, modern "Adventure Path" or "Plot Point" style games).
Most of the stuff mentioned here is shared by the sessions of my friend's 6yr old and me playing dolls... and I don't mean that as a negative at all.
I would say it's the ability to build long lasting friendships through a common interest. There is usually a commitment level to RPGs that usually only develops around people you enjoy spending time with. It's a game but one where your ability doesn't diminish over time like sports. That shared experience allows you to connect to others with the same experience. I never would've thought that RPGs would have taught me what they have or introduced me to the people I know.
Quote from: Gunslinger;755747I would say it's the ability to build long lasting friendships through a common interest. There is usually a commitment level to RPGs that usually only develops around people you enjoy spending time with. It's a game but one where your ability doesn't diminish over time like sports. That shared experience allows you to connect to others with the same experience. I never would've thought that RPGs would have taught me what they have or introduced me to the people I know.
Other hobbies have this too, though. I think it's mostly due to our hobby-peers being adults. As kids we didn't choose our childhood friends, we just happened to go to the same elementary school.
Whatever the reason, you see it all over. Heck even on this board.
Quote from: Simlasa;755710Most of the stuff mentioned here is shared by the sessions of my friend's 6yr old and me playing dolls... and I don't mean that as a negative at all.
Makes sense given that rpgs are nothing more than pretend play with a few rules splattered on top.
Quote from: jibbajibba;755626But surely you can makeup a character in improv acting, you get continuity reading and episodic story in a comic or watching a TV show, you get to act in large freeform fictionalised universe if you write fan fic, you get to model real world physics using dice etc on a table top war game.
So what is the edge that RPGs have that say you can't get from writing shared fan fic on a Harry Potter forum. Or maybe that is an RPG as well.......
Depends on where you draw the line at what is Role playing. Taken to the Nth degree as some have done. Everything is role-playing. And the term looses any meaning. Monopoly is an RPG. No. Really. Ive had people argue exactly that. Reading a book IS role-playing. Really!
Emergent story.
It's like a play (which I also liked to do as a kid) but nobody knows what the story is until you tell it.
Also, in some RPGs, you can finger-bang your friends and nobody thinks that's weird.
Omega: my favorite RPG is Peggle
Come to think of it, I did take a crack at trying to explain what is special about the RPG; in the foreword of my b/x homage game referee's guide. Here's a paraphrase.
What sets RPGs apart from other games and collaborative fiction is the referee and his dual roles.
He simulates opposition (and assistance and other stuff). This is important: he does not oppose the players; he simulates the opposition to the other players, while actually being one of them. I claim that he is just another player in the sense that the main reward players earn through playing- a sense of camaraderie- is one the referee also earns in the same measure as the other players do.
The referee also has asymmetrical information and final say on the rules; but these charges do not make him more responsible for attaining that table reward that keeps everyone coming back for more. In this way he resembles the director of a play, but also the impartial referee of a football game.
The juxtaposition of these roles played by one person- that of teammate, opponent, and judge- is what sets an RPG apart from other kinds of games as well as other kinds of fiction.
The advantage that RPGs have over other media due to this referee role allows for more satisfying emergent storytelling than in the several related media.
Quote from: Omega;755848Depends on where you draw the line at what is Role playing. Taken to the Nth degree as some have done. Everything is role-playing. And the term looses any meaning. Monopoly is an RPG. No. Really. Ive had people argue exactly that. Reading a book IS role-playing. Really!
Uh, Wat?
Quote from: Scott Anderson;755874Come to think of it, I did take a crack at trying to explain what is special about the RPG; in the foreword of my b/x homage game referee's guide. Here's a paraphrase.
What sets RPGs apart from other games and collaborative fiction is the referee and his dual roles.
He simulates opposition (and assistance and other stuff). This is important: he does not oppose the players; he simulates the opposition to the other players, while actually being one of them. I claim that he is just another player in the sense that the main reward players earn through playing- a sense of camaraderie- is one the referee also earns in the same measure as the other players do.
The referee also has asymmetrical information and final say on the rules; but these charges do not make him more responsible for attaining that table reward that keeps everyone coming back for more. In this way he resembles the director of a play, but also the impartial referee of a football game.
The juxtaposition of these roles played by one person- that of teammate, opponent, and judge- is what sets an RPG apart from other kinds of games as well as other kinds of fiction.
The advantage that RPGs have over other media due to this referee role allows for more satisfying emergent storytelling than in the several related media.
You really should put your book in your sig box as a link. Hint, hint.
Quote from: Simlasa;755710Most of the stuff mentioned here is shared by the sessions of my friend's 6yr old and me playing dolls... and I don't mean that as a negative at all.
You think you have problems. All of my daughters toys and puppets have backstories and their own voices and personalities (shit most of them have passports and birth certificates). Last week she decided she was going to become a barrister when she grew up so she decided to run a trial. She gave all the toys a role in the trial (judge, accused, member of the jury, defense laywer etc) and then I had to run a whole trial with witnesses expert testimony and the like.
It's pretty hard to have a Japanese female polar bear cross examine a squirrel pathologist, with an indian mongoose chucking in objections and an upper class british donkey judge determining what can be submitted as evidence and what can't.
the trial took 2 hours !!!!
(sometimes I do wander if I have a daughter at all or if I have imagined the whole thing)
Quote from: jibbajibba;755894You think you have problems. All of my daughters toys and puppets have backstories and their own voices and personalities...(snip)
Oh! That's great stuff.
We've built up all sorts of background and voices for our setting too. This afternoon a bunch of aliens invaded Queen Mannequin's palace... turns out they were friendly but the Queen went a bit nuts and demanded all the shoes in the kingdom be confiscated. The girls from the pie shop and the Royal gymnastics studio were all thrown in the dungeon... but once there they coated everything in glitter and started singing. The girls redubbed it the 'FUNgeon'.
The majority of my roleplaying these days comes from playing with her... vs. formal RPG gaming.
Quote from: jibbajibba;755626But surely you can makeup a character in improv acting, you get continuity reading and episodic story in a comic or watching a TV show, you get to act in large freeform fictionalised universe if you write fan fic, you get to model real world physics using dice etc on a table top war game ...
Yeah. The number of things people are coming up with that are shared by other games, sports or forms of entertainment makes me want to paraphrase Inigo Montoya: Unique? You all keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
There's nothing all that special about RPGs. They're a weird fringe thing which rely on a melange of shared assumptions which came together in the geek culture of the 1970s and grew somewhat from there. They rise and fall with that particular generation and its younger shoulder.
Quote from: Simlasa;755919Oh! That's great stuff.
We've built up all sorts of background and voices for our setting too. This afternoon a bunch of aliens invaded Queen Mannequin's palace... turns out they were friendly but the Queen went a bit nuts and demanded all the shoes in the kingdom be confiscated. The girls from the pie shop and the Royal gymnastics studio were all thrown in the dungeon... but once there they coated everything in glitter and started singing. The girls redubbed it the 'FUNgeon'.
The majority of my roleplaying these days comes from playing with her... vs. formal RPG gaming.
You should try walking round a souk in Cairo with a bear puppet threatening all the husslers with a voice like Olllie Reed from Oliver Twist.
"Ill have your eyes I will. I'm a bear see"
Thanks for the advice about linking my game. But it's not for sale anywhere. It's just for fun.
Quote from: Marleycat;755883Uh, Wat?
I've been in an argument where someone tried to claim the HG Wells
Little Wars was an RPG, therefore RPGs were over a hundred years old. This is part of why I'm interested in the Pundit's efforts to distinguish RPGs from Story games... I'm tired of this fruitless, pointless ambiguity.
By their logic, checkers is chess because it's on a checker board and uses pieces. Oh, it's also role-playing because you're assuming the role of an invisible commander of the pieces, playing to a goal that is beyond the scope of any piece.
Related, but not in response to Marleycat... I played games with my GI Joes and Transformers as a kid. I made plots, stories, and played out scenarios. It wasn't a role-playing game, because when I graduated into role-playing games, I had to figure it out from scratch. They are related activities (creative, using characters, generating plots) but not the same animal.
So I think what separates RPGs from simple play is the structure involved.
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;755987I've been in an argument where someone tried to claim the HG Wells Little Wars was an RPG, therefore RPGs were over a hundred years old. This is part of why I'm interested in the Pundit's efforts to distinguish RPGs from Story games... I'm tired of this fruitless, pointless ambiguity.
By their logic, checkers is chess because it's on a checker board and uses pieces. Oh, it's also role-playing because you're assuming the role of an invisible commander of the pieces, playing to a goal that is beyond the scope of any piece.
Eeesh, no kidding. Or back in college days, where the UMass-Boston SF Club was our crew's hangout, and we'd turn games like
Nuclear War into melodrama. "You have betrayed me for the last time, you jackal! Feel the wrath of the Royal Lithuanian Strategic Nuclear Forces! Triple yield!
Triple yield!"
We
joked that we'd turned
Nuke War, Car Wars and other such games into RPGs, but our blather didn't make it so.
Quote from: Ravenswing;756172Eeesh, no kidding. Or back in college days, where the UMass-Boston SF Club was our crew's hangout, and we'd turn games like Nuclear War into melodrama. "You have betrayed me for the last time, you jackal! Feel the wrath of the Royal Lithuanian Strategic Nuclear Forces! Triple yield! Triple yield!"
We joked that we'd turned Nuke War, Car Wars and other such games into RPGs, but our blather didn't make it so.
I used to roleplay escape from Colditz. Each of my little men had a preferred method of escape a name and a couple of quirks. I alway remember when Polowski was caught by an apell roll call just as I was lining up a staff car escape and he flipped and went all Do or Die on me... or Schmitt who's own father had servers it the trenches and refused to shoot a man in the back even if he was fleeing.
Nearly all the home brew boardgames we turned out have strong role play aspects. Basically any game where given a standard circumstance you have a couple of different options to choose from can be role played.
In Arkham Horror do you charge in with reckless abandon and let the dice fall where they may or do you take time to build up an unassailable position, In Tannhauser do you sacrifice yourself so the Allied forces can be eliminated? etc etc
Quote from: jibbajibba;756195I used to roleplay escape from Colditz. Each of my little men had a preferred method of escape a name and a couple of quirks.
I do the same sorts of things with various wargames I play. It's hard not to get into the 'character' of the army and certain heroes.
Warhammer Fantasy Battles always brought that out in spades and any smaller skirmish games like Song of Blades and Heroes plays a lot more fun if I drop the straight up competition angle and play more to the motivations of the particular warband.
Games like WFB aren't RPGs... but they can be played to where they feel a lot like one... just like RPGs can be played where they feel more like skirmish wargames.
Here is another question, do they need to be unique?
Quote from: jibbajibba;756195I used to roleplay escape from Colditz. Each of my little men had a preferred method of escape a name and a couple of quirks. I alway remember when Polowski was caught by an apell roll call just as I was lining up a staff car escape and he flipped and went all Do or Die on me... or Schmitt who's own father had servers it the trenches and refused to shoot a man in the back even if he was fleeing.
Nearly all the home brew boardgames we turned out have strong role play aspects. Basically any game where given a standard circumstance you have a couple of different options to choose from can be role played.
In Arkham Horror do you charge in with reckless abandon and let the dice fall where they may or do you take time to build up an unassailable position, In Tannhauser do you sacrifice yourself so the Allied forces can be eliminated? etc etc
But the key thing is, without the RP, you are still playing those games. It is not a key feature of any of them that role playing be involved. Whereas with RPGs roleplaying a character is a key feature of the game and arguably if you stop doing that (however one defines RP) you are no longer playing a roleplaying game. So for the key feature of RPGs is the ability to try anything as the character you are playing. I wouldn't want to reduce it to that (there is a lot more to RPGs than that alone). It is however the thing that struck me when I first played and why I kept coming back to it.
Quote from: dragoner;756271Here is another question, do they need to be unique?
They don't need to be. But they clearly do offer a different experience from a board game, movie, or video game. I am not sure you can sum up that difference in one item. I feel like there is a cluster of qualities that separate RPGs from other things.
The problem though is definitions of RPG are usually self serving.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756275The problem though is definitions of RPG are usually self serving.
Another might be representing rpg's as special snowflake when they are just another game might be turning people away who otherwise might be interested in playing. Sort of like in Zero Charisma when the one guy says "it's just a game" and the other is like "no, it's ancient blah blah blah". Inclusion vs exclusion.
Quote from: dragoner;756279Another might be representing rpg's as special snowflake when they are just another game might be turning people away who otherwise might be interested in playing. Sort of like in Zero Charisma when the one guy says "it's just a game" and the other is like "no, it's ancient blah blah blah". Inclusion vs exclusion.
I think one can acknowledge what makes an activity with others without becoming a zealot though. Sure if your in everyone's face like the guy from zero charisma, that is an issue. But it is useful to know how to describe RPGs to people. That doesnt mean you need to crap on other activities in the process, it isnt a zero sum game between activities. Just because a car can drive 200 mile per hour and a DVD can't, it doesnt make watching movies a worse hobby than nascar.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756282I think one can acknowledge what makes an activity with others without becoming a zealot though.
Yes, but it doesn't always play out that way, look at the clinging to "geek culture" on rpg.net, enworld, etc.; it does get represented as special snowflake. Even here, I can list a few posts over line in just the last few days.
Quote from: Simlasa;756201Games like WFB aren't RPGs... but they can be played to where they feel a lot like one... just like RPGs can be played where they feel more like skirmish wargames.
This can't be said enough.
Quote from: dragoner;756284Yes, but it doesn't always play out that way, look at the clinging to "geek culture" on rpg.net, enworld, etc.; it does get represented as special snowflake. Even here, I can list a few posts over line in just the last few days.
Certainly, but everything on the internet is like that, it isn't just gaming or geek related forums. I am just talking about being able to identify some of the things that make RPGs different from other similar activities. To me that is totally reasonable provided it isn't being used to win other arguments (and i completely agree it often is, which is why I said unfortunately definitions of rpg are often very self serving). So while there is the extreme of people who narrowly define RPGs and try to make it this thing that can't be compared to anything else, there is the other extreme of people saying it is indistuinshable from other activities. I mean it is okay to identify the things that make gaming special to us without going over the deep end. If I am talking about other things I enjoym and someone asks me why, I will usually try to find the few things that set that activity apart for me.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756289If I am talking about other things I enjoym and someone asks me why, I will usually try to find the few things that set that activity apart for me.
Yes, making up your own world for example, great fun. I was just mentioning the non-unique viewpoint isn't necessarily bad.
Quote from: Marleycat;755479They cause a bunch of 40-50 year old men to enter frothing at the mouth rages on the internet if they decide you're not playing pretend elves correctly?
That my thought.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756273But the key thing is, without the RP, you are still playing those games. It is not a key feature of any of them that role playing be involved. Whereas with RPGs roleplaying a character is a key feature of the game and arguably if you stop doing that (however one defines RP) you are no longer playing a roleplaying game. So for the key feature of RPGs is the ability to try anything as the character you are playing.
Emphasis mine.
So stipulated, but that's not the OP's question. The OP's question was what
unique features RPGs had that set them apart from other games. Since one can plainly RP in many board games -- and indeed some games encourage you to do so -- RP alone is nothing unique.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756314That my thought.
Well I was going to include 30 year olds also but I didn't want to get stoned to death like some women in the past.;)
Quote from: Ravenswing;756404Emphasis mine.
So stipulated, but that's not the OP's question. The OP's question was what unique features RPGs had that set them apart from other games. Since one can plainly RP in many board games -- and indeed some games encourage you to do so -- RP alone is nothing unique.
Sure. I did answer earlier with what is unique for me about rpgs, and that is the ablity to act inside a setting as a character, with the ability to try anything amd go in which ever direction I choose. Perhaps some can achieve that level of agency and immersion in a video game, improv troupe or board game, but i sure can't...and that is definitely the thing that keeps me coming back to RPGs. For me there is something unique about the kind of immersion I get in table top RPGs.
Quote from: Marleycat;756407Well I was going to include 30 year olds also but I didn't want to get stoned to death like some women in the past.;)
You moved to Denver? :D
Quote from: jeff37923;756437You moved to Denver? :D
I wish given I could smoke weed and troll Bronco fans simultaneously with it being legal.:)
I am thinking about getting a moped/scooter whatever it is..think about it Jeff....me driving something motorized that isn't 4-wheeled.......for impaired dummies like myself. Absolutely nothing will go wrong right?
I was gonna say, 1967 is long gone. :D
Quote from: dragoner;756271Here is another question, do they need to be unique?
I don't think rpgs have a purely unique element, something you can't find anywhere else. Its the combination of elements that makes a special experience and their own venue.
Quote from: Marleycat;756441I wish given I could smoke weed and troll Bronco fans simultaneously with it being legal.:)
I am thinking about getting a moped/scooter whatever it is..think about it Jeff....me driving something motorized that isn't 4-wheeled.......for impaired dummies like myself. Absolutely nothing will go wrong right?
I'm imagining something like
Roman Holiday with Audrey Hepburn....:D
Quote from: Nexus;756618I don't think rpgs have a purely unique element, something you can't find anywhere else. Its the combination of elements that makes a special experience and their own venue.
I think the continuity issue is unique. I've been mulling it over, and I can't think of any other game that just doesn't end as a matter of course. Most games, someone wins, loses or draws: there's a finite outcome. Gambling games? Sooner or later, all the contestants go broke or cash out.
Quote from: Ravenswing;756631I think the continuity issue is unique. I've been mulling it over, and I can't think of any other game that just doesn't end as a matter of course. Most games, someone wins, loses or draws: there's a finite outcome. Gambling games? Sooner or later, all the contestants go broke or cash out.
Lots of wargames can be part of larger campaigns. I've played smaller skirmish games like Necromunda where there was ongoing development of player gangs between games... vendettas and shifting power setting up new scenarios for battles. It could all happen in the course of an evening or be drawn out over a whole summer... just a couple of players or many... with developments from individual games affecting the whole.
I think GW has run similar ongoing world events using 40K and WFB.
A good campaign can be a lot of work to set up and manage but when it works it's my favorite way to play.
Quote from: Ravenswing;756631I think the continuity issue is unique. I've been mulling it over, and I can't think of any other game that just doesn't end as a matter of course. Most games, someone wins, loses or draws: there's a finite outcome. Gambling games? Sooner or later, all the contestants go broke or cash out.
War games can be played as campaigns very similar to rpg campaigns. There have been some computer games that don't end in the sense you can keep playing them though they encounters will be random, after the plot it wrapped up or ignored.
Quote from: Nexus;756618I don't think rpgs have a purely unique element, something you can't find anywhere else. Its the combination of elements that makes a special experience and their own venue.
They are in many ways, they extended play version of the imaginary people and places we created as kids. I wouldn't call it unique in it's own way, but it is different.
Quote from: dragoner;756645They are in many ways, they extended play version of the imaginary people and places we created as kids. I wouldn't call it unique in it's own way, but it is different.
I agree rpgs are unique medium I meant that there isn't a single thing about them, any one element that sets them apart as it doesn't exist anywhere else. Its the combination of elements that does. IMO.
RPGs let you create and/or exist in another world.