Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856435Also I don't understand what you mean about replays, in general. Because in that dungeon Angry is building, the entire point is to structure everything so the party doesn't get killed.

That's what I'm talking about. It negates the fundamental point of a proper dungeon in the original sense. It's a 're-imagining' to the point that the nomenclature is absurd in an "old school" context.

I started a different thread to talk about this, but I would like to know your opinion on a particular subject:

- In old school D&D, level is the main gauge of character capability.

I am under the impression that abilities/attributes and skills have become ubiquitous in RPGs, but in OD&D abilities are unchangeable and skills are defined by level, which is very diminished in newer games (in 5e, for example, we have been discussing how most saves don't improve with level).

I would like to know what Gronan, Chirine, and others reading this thread think about that if you will. Thanks!

Quote from: Eric Diaz;856456I started a different thread to talk about this, but I would like to know your opinion on a particular subject:

- In old school D&D, level is the main gauge of character capability.

This is generally true in D&D played with old school rules. Attributes generally only go up via rare magic items (e.g. reading the Manual of Gainful Exercise adds 1 point to strength). And almost everything else that varies (hit points, attack chance, saving throws, spells cast per day, etc.) is mainly determined by your level (with a low or high attribute modifying things in some cases).

Quote from: Eric Diaz;856456I started a different thread to talk about this, but I would like to know your opinion on a particular subject:

- In old school D&D, level is the main gauge of character capability.

I am under the impression that abilities/attributes and skills have become ubiquitous in RPGs, but in OD&D abilities are unchangeable and skills are defined by level, which is very diminished in newer games (in 5e, for example, we have been discussing how most saves don't improve with level).

I would like to know what Gronan, Chirine, and others reading this thread think about that if you will. Thanks!

Level is the initial determinant of how well a fighter hits things, a thief picks locks, a cleric turns undead, a mage casts spells. It gives hit points and saving throws.

Player decisions are additional and often more important factors. A well ordered heavy spear phalanx is likely to deliver glorious death to a disordered band of unarmored axe-swingers.

Player decisions are generally the most important factor in activities beyond those key class-specific ones.

Ability scores can be considerations, and can vary widely over a figure's career. The key difference is that these changes are consequences of events in play, usually magical, rather than of spending points on a "figure build" shopping list.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;856456- In old school D&D, level is the main gauge of character capability.

The main reason for this is that in Chainmail's Fantasy Combat, a Hero was worth four normal figures, and a super-hero was worth eight normal figures.

The path to OD&D from Chainmail winds a bit but the idea that level means you are X times better than an average guy persists and is the source of the use of levels in D&D.

Where Chainmail had discrete jumps from veteran to hero to super hero, OD&D defines the intermediate steps as well.

Also the difference between 1st and 4th and 8th level was toned down a bit. in Chainmail, a 4th level Hero was really equal to four normal figures. In D&D this was only perserved in the way that hit points are setup and even then there was a cut off point where that stopped (usually around 9th or 10th level).

Over the years and editions this was expanded and extrapolated into what we have now.

Quote from: estar;856473Also the difference between 1st and 4th and 8th level was toned down a bit. in Chainmail, a 4th level Hero was really equal to four normal figures. In D&D this was only perserved in the way that hit points are setup and even then there was a cut off point where that stopped (usually around 9th or 10th level).

Over the years and editions this was expanded and extrapolated into what we have now.

Do you mean eventually the levels stopped being representative of multiples of an average person? Or that it was replaced with even more power rather than less?

After level 9 or 10, you stop rolling new hit dice (and getting a constitution bonus), and simply go up 1, 2, or 3 hp per level. This coincides with when fighters stop wading into so many combats and start setting up keeps and lesser kingdoms, so I assume that's part of it, but I've never heard anyone confirm the why of that (or why xp per level plateaus around there). It is a staple of TSR era A/D&D and most of the retro-clones and OSR games, but I don't think it is vital to the concept.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856476Do you mean eventually the levels stopped being representative of multiples of an average person? Or that it was replaced with even more power rather than less?

Yes they stopped being a strict representative of multiples of an average person.

As for the power level the focus was more on character customization then combat power. It varied in my opinion it went like this.

OD&D the first game

OD&D + Greyhawk beefed up fighters and spell caster and added the thief.

AD&D pulled in all the stuff in OD&D that was scattered about in supplements and magazine and clean it up.
Unearthed Arcana - fighters get boosted and a couple of other tweaks were added that helped other classes.

AD&D 2e - the focus is more on customization than raw power along AD&D 2e to be used with a variety of settings.

AD&D 2e - Skills and Power - nominally the ultimate character customization tool for 2e it also upped the power level of the game.

D&D 3.0 - cleaned up the issues with Skills and Power and took character customization to the limit. However instead of a balance between roleplaying and combat the customization became more and move focused on combat.

D&D 3.5 - the trend towards combat customization is in full bloom. However there was so much diverse material it was really the fault of the referee if that was a problem.

D&D 4.0 - the customization was 90% only for combat. The rest was dialed back to OD&D level which is to day it was relegated to pure roleplaying.

D&D 5.0 - the first edition since 3.0 to scale things back it went even further than 3.0 in clamping down the power curve from the previous edition. It also has a better balance between roleplaying mechanics and combat mechanics. Still has a fair bit of customization. However it has no where near about of detail that 3.X or 4.0 has.

Pathfinder - continue 3.5 but like 3.5 it so diverse it is on the referee if combat mechanics get out of control for his campaign.

One thing you have to remember is that the rules are NOT the point of playing a RPG. The point is to be a character doing hopefully interesting things in a imagined setting. The rules are a tool to adjudicate what the character does when he interacts with the setting. When the setting logic conflicts with the logic of the rule then the setting logic should prevail.

Setting logic does not automatically equate to realism. It could mean that is a place where a character with the experience of a Hero is equal in ability to four veteran fighting men. Or it could be totally grounded in realism where a single sword strike could take out even the most experienced warrior.

The answer to your questions about levels rest on the fact of what does a 4th level fighter or wizard mean to you when you create a setting.  For me what it means is experience. My settings being a leveled character is not special and is a mark of experience. This is neither the only choice nor the superior choice, some consider even a 2nd level character as something special. Think the Marvel or DC Universe where even the weak superheroes are a cut above the ordinary person in the street.

I equate it something like this.

levels 1 to 2 a novice in the profession. Just completed schooling so know something things.
Level 3, you come into your own. You are ordained a priest, you are knighted, you are full member of a mage's or thieves guild.
Level 6, you are a leader among your profession. You still have superiors but you command others well.
Level 9, you are at the height of your profession and can operate independently
Level 12, you are the head of your profession or close to it.
Level 16, you are a legend in your profession.
Level 20, you are a legend to the general populace.

Quote from: estar;856544Yes they stopped being a strict representative of multiples of an average person.

As for the power level the focus was more on character customization then combat power. It varied in my opinion it went like this.

OD&D the first game

OD&D + Greyhawk beefed up fighters and spell caster and added the thief.

Then there was

0D&D + Blackmoor - This added Monks and Assassins

0D&D + Eldritch Wizardry - This added Druids & Psionics to the game.

0D&D + Strategic Review and/or Best of Dragon - added Rangers, Witches, and Illusionists to the game.

Judges Guild added a bunch of variant tables, mostly for npc encounters. But there was a number of add on classes that were available in the early (pre-1980) Dungeoneer magazine.

Just some of them included:

Abaku Painters
Anti-Paladins
Mystic
Priests of Thebes
Warlocks
Half-Ogres
Initiates of the White God
Bards
Lightwalkers
Healers
Phoenix (also a race)
and ...Amazons.

OD&D was very sophisticated even before AD&D was published. Just 'sayin.

Quote from: estar;856473Also the difference between 1st and 4th and 8th level was toned down a bit. in Chainmail, a 4th level Hero was really equal to four normal figures. In D&D this was only perserved in the way that hit points are setup and even then there was a cut off point where that stopped (usually around 9th or 10th level).

In OD&D a Hero gets 4 attacks against 1 HD or less opponents, a Superhero gets 8, just like in CHAINMAIL.

And of course it works for monsters too.  That's one reason you don't bring ordinary soldiers down past the 2nd level.  A giant scorpion of 5 HD will slaughter a platoon of normal men.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856587In OD&D a Hero gets 4 attacks against 1 HD or less opponents, a Superhero gets 8, just like in CHAINMAIL.

And of course it works for monsters too.  That's one reason you don't bring ordinary soldiers down past the 2nd level.  A giant scorpion of 5 HD will slaughter a platoon of normal men.

I did not know that it applied to monsters. Do you know where that stated? I am curious to read it myself.

It started in CHAINMAIL and was brought forward.  Ogres originally fought as six heavy foot; this was modifed to 4 HD in OD&D, so they fought as 4 figures against ordinary men.  It was that way the first time I ever played in Greyhawk.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856150How would you do that? I mean, it wouldn't be "4E" anymore if you changed it enough.

I don't subscribe to the idea that a system must be played in a specific way to maintain its identity. The changes I proposed earlier, for example, simply change a few numbers and the ease of which PCs regain their abilities. Does a Kobold need to have low hit points to be considered  "old school" or is it just as likely he only needs to be hit once or twice by low-level PCs?

What I believe it boils down to is the emphasis of what one considers old-school and then modulating a system to adhere to those principals. Is 4e any less "4e" if a Fighter starts with 5 surges /day compared to 12? Or when a Rogue has to train with a master to gain their 9th level daily? Or if the DM decides that a wizards Scorching Burst at-will spell doesn't work underwater? To me it doesn't matter.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856629It started in CHAINMAIL and was brought forward.  Ogres originally fought as six heavy foot; this was modifed to 4 HD in OD&D, so they fought as 4 figures against ordinary men.  It was that way the first time I ever played in Greyhawk.

Makes sense thanks.

Quote from: estar;856660Makes sense thanks.

Of course those rules apply only when such creatures are fighting rank & file mooks only. Any first level character in OD&D besides a fighting man is just a mook because they are also 1 HD or less.

 If a hero or any fighting man for that matter, were fighting alongside his men, the ogre wouldn't get those attacks.