Quote from: Elliot WilenWell, at this point I'm commenting more on the presentation of the AP, including--especially--the idea that readers would/should see it as something to recommend the game book, than I am on what happened at the table. Who knows, maybe it was as meaningful and sophisticated as Byron and the Shelleys engaging in an all night chat? But the AP as presented offers nothing to distinguish it from "adolescent depravities", and the implication that the game will give players a "meaningful experience" does border on advertising emo-tourism.

Actually, my understanding is that some of the most extreme stuff didn't make it into the AP. Baker says we don't get to read about all the 'good stuff'. Given the content of the stuff he did print, I seriously doubt the good stuff is anything more than particularly vile incidents that even Baker was too wise to post on the net. So I don't see any likelihood that anything at all meaningful or sophisticated happened in that game.

Quote from: StuartCertainly creating and promoting a game that encourages treating sensitive topics in a trite or offensive way is hurtful.  It's also bad to hold up that inferior approach to dealing with sensitive topics as deep and meaningful - it's pretentious and misleading to those who might not be mature enough to know any better.  It's also hurtful to expose the general public to something that's trite or offensive.

I am totally in agreement with you. I guess since I haven't read or played Poison'd I just can't make the call that it is that kind of game. Having read and played Dogs in the Vineyard I can certainly make the call that it approaches its subject matter in an extremely tasteful and mature way. This biases me in favour of Poison'd somewhat, but I would have to read and play it before making my mind up fully.

Quote from: StuartI'd hate to think of an actual abuse victim walking past a table at Gen-Con where a poorly conceived improv game dealing with "mature" issues was taking place.

Well, shit happens, you know? One member in our gaming group is deathly afraid of spiders - I mean, jumping-out-of-a-moving-vehicle-on-the-highway scared - does that mean that the D&D game about Lolth the Demon Queen of Spiders has to be cancelled because she's gaming on the next table over?

This is the standpoint that causes my opinion that anything that is currently acceptable in popular media is alright in my group, unless someone who is actually in my group has a problem with it.

- * -

For the rest of your post, let's just say that I agree with you wholeheartedly. Experts collaborating to create stories that deal with issues is a superior model for presenting well thought out narratives about issues. No arguments.

That doesn't mean my gaming group is doing something wrong in creating an inferior piece of art (bleagh - I don't mean "artsy" art, that's not why I game) that has a stronger emotional attachment to us than, say, reading a book - because we made it and it's the distillation of our thoughts on the subjects. It just means it's not as objectively valuable to humanity as something created by experts.

Quote from: James J SkachAlso, that if he can't find a way to point at that AP and be appalled, we probably have too little in common to continue to try to find common ground on topics.

You mean appalled by the story that evolved, or appalled at the idea of telling such a story?

'cuz I can totally get on board with being appalled by the disgusting story.  Heck, I expect Vincent can get on board with that, too.  The story is appalling.

I just don't draw the connection from that to being appalled at the notion that people would tell such an appalling story, any more than I become sad at the notion that people would tell a sad story, or scared by the concept that people make horror movies.

So, y'know, which thing are you aiming at, there?

Quote from: lachekWell, shit happens, you know? One member in our gaming group is deathly afraid of spiders - I mean, jumping-out-of-a-moving-vehicle-on-the-highway scared - does that mean that the D&D game about Lolth the Demon Queen of Spiders has to be cancelled because she's gaming on the next table over?

Did...did you just compare having a phobia to spiders to being a victim of sexual abuse?

Umm.  Wow.

To James - hell no. I'd never dream of saying that.

All I'm saying is that the Issue-based story may be more entertaining (=useful) to the group than an expert-created work may be, since it was created by the group for the group.

If we agree that it's not harmful to do so (trivializing a very serious issue would be considered potentially harmful in my book), then I see no fault in creating stories to which the participants have an emotional connection.

After a few days of mulling, here are my final thoughts on the AP that started this mess:

What happened in that session of Poison'd is the business of the players involved, as long as no one actually got hurt. To brag about that experience on the internet, when it was so very vile, is supremely tacky, but I'm not the Internet Tackiness Patrol so that's a moot point. The best I can do is look at displays like this and treat them like the patterns on a coral snake, or a rattlesnake's rattle: A little hint from Mother Nature that says "stay away."

So if I ever meet anyone who says anything similar, I know not to befriend them, or lend them money or a gaming book, or leave them alone in a room with my kids (not out of fear of molestation, out of fear that they will start spouting stupid bullcrap which my kids will hear and I won't be around to filter it). But I'm not going to lynch them in the street.

And that's that.

Quote from: KenHRDid...did you just compare having a phobia to spiders to being a victim of sexual abuse?

Umm.  Wow.

No, whatever gave you that impression? All I said was that some people are having to deal with issues - if those issues are prevalent themes in popular media, I don't see why we as a hobby should have to avoid them like the plague in an effort to ensure that stray passers-by don't get hurt, when they get hurt constantly by Big Media and society and are having to cope with it on a day-to-day basis anyway.

That changes considerably when it's someone in your group coping with an issue, as I've expressed before. You actually have a shot-in-Hell to prevent that from happening, whereas you have no idea if - for example - some person at the next table over is afraid of spiders or were abused by his father as a child.

Quote from: lachekNo, whatever gave you that impression? All I said was that some people are having to deal with issues - if those issues are prevalent themes in popular media, I don't see why we as a hobby should have to avoid them like the plague in an effort to ensure that stray passers-by don't get hurt, when they get hurt constantly by Big Media and society and are having to cope with it on a day-to-day basis anyway.

That changes considerably when it's someone in your group coping with an issue, as I've expressed before. You actually have a shot-in-Hell to prevent that from happening, whereas you have no idea if - for example - some person at the next table over is afraid of spiders or were abused by his father as a child.

Okay, I see where you're coming from.  Sort of.

But I'd question why you'd feel the need to explore such a theme in public at a con rather than at your home.  A phobia to spiders is not nearly the same thing as being a victim of abuse, and to think another's reaction to one is comparable to the other is just wrong.  You're right that abuse is dealt with in popular media, but it is not put on gratuitous, graphic display the way it was in the game that touched off all this stuff.  You need a better analogy to defend your position here at the very least...but I think your reasoning is just wrong and insensitive (and I'm not a touchy-feely person).  There's a place for everything, etc.

Quote from: TonyLBYou mean appalled by the story that evolved, or appalled at the idea of telling such a story?

'cuz I can totally get on board with being appalled by the disgusting story.  Heck, I expect Vincent can get on board with that, too.  The story is appalling.

I just don't draw the connection from that to being appalled at the notion that people would tell such an appalling story, any more than I become sad at the notion that people would tell a sad story, or scared by the concept that people make horror movies.

So, y'know, which thing are you aiming at, there?

I'm aiming at the people who were involved in reveling in the appalling acts that they were, through their characters, performing in the name of tackling important issues.  I mean, look how they revel in their own importance because they had different kinds of rape. If you can't see the difference between that and a "scary story" or "sad story," I'm not sure we have much to say, really.

If that's why you're gaming and with whom your gaming, and you're OK with that - hey, no skin off my nose. But I can certainly judge those involved and those who have no problem with it.

Quote from: lachekNo, whatever gave you that impression? All I said was that some people are having to deal with issues - if those issues are prevalent themes in popular media, I don't see why we as a hobby should have to avoid them like the plague in an effort to ensure that stray passers-by don't get hurt, when they get hurt constantly by Big Media and society and are having to cope with it on a day-to-day basis anyway.

Hey! Look! I can throw rocks at the car cause the other kids are doing it! But Mom!  Vincent's doing it, and he's cool. His mom lets him do everything. He got to stay up to see the midnight movie and saw Night of the Living Dead!

Quote from: James J SkachI'm aiming at the people who were involved in reveling in the appalling acts that they were, through their characters, performing in the name of tackling important issues.  I mean, look how they revel in their own importance because they had different kinds of rape. If you can't see the difference between that and a "scary story" or "sad story," I'm not sure we have much to say, really.

I guess that's where we are, then.  I don't find myself either shocked or appalled by the idea that people would say "Wow, it's cool how really appalling a story we created."  I've played "Gross out" at various ages, with various people, myself.  I get how it can be fun.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.  It's a shame that our disagreement on this has turned (at least on your side) into a divide ... but I appreciate your making clear where you stand.

Quote from: KenHRBut I'd question why you'd feel the need to explore such a theme in public at a con rather than at your home.  

My sense is the people who play the sorts of games described in the Poison'd APs have great difficulty finding other locals who share their appetites. So they only get to indulge them when the few other likeminded individuals are gathered together at cons and such.

Quote from: KenHRYou're right that abuse is dealt with in popular media, but it is not put on gratuitous, graphic display the way it was in the game that touched off all this stuff.  You need a better analogy to defend your position here at the very least...but I think your reasoning is just wrong and insensitive (and I'm not a touchy-feely person).  There's a place for everything, etc.

It's also not told from the perspective, as Kyle so rightly pointed out in the other thread, of the abuser being cheered on.

Quote from: TonyLBI guess that's where we are, then.  I don't find myself either shocked or appalled by the idea that people would say "Wow, it's cool how really appalling a story we created."  I've played "Gross out" at various ages, with various people, myself.  I get how it can be fun.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.  It's a shame that our disagreement on this has turned (at least on your side) into a divide ... but I appreciate your making clear where you stand.

You show me where this is Gross Out - was that in the circle of abuse afterword where they stayed and talked for hours and didn't want to let anyone else in?

If it was Gross Out, then I'd expect more from adults - even ones playing games. But I've seen no evidence that the point of this excercise was Gross Out.  So fuck that silly little argument.

Quote from: TonyLBI I don't find myself either shocked or appalled by the idea that people would say "Wow, it's cool how really appalling a story we created."  I've played "Gross out" at various ages, with various people, myself.  I get how it can be fun.

I did too - when I was 14. The appalling thing about the Poison'd APs isn't so much the vileness of the narrative itself as the fact the players are grown adults who feel their rape and slaughter fantasies were beautiful and moving. Vileness + pretentions + delusion = truly fucking disturbing.