Quote from: Elliot WilenFrom what you've written about your Star Wars game here and here, I don't think I'd want to play in your game, and I'd be apprehensive about hearing about it in any more detail.

What's funny is you don't actually link to the game itself. As you'll see if you read that thread it's all pretty boring, compared to what you're thinking.

QuoteA player's partial, and GM is impartial - or if partial, is partial to the players. Remember another name for "Game Master" is "referee". The referee doesn't have a personal stake in the game, they're just there to make sure it all goes fairly towards its final goal.

This might work for you, but when I GM, I am no referee.

I'm a world builder, which means, yeah I sure have a personal stake  in the game world.

I don't have a "final goal" either, I just let the world unfold as it would.

QuoteThey don't have to be perfect saints. Just normal humans is enough. But not sociopaths.

You would be surprised what "normal humans" are capable of doing.
Comic book morality doesn't help you here, as I said before.

None of those responses made sense to me.

The table I game at sets its barometer at the level of the most squeamish person at the table.  We're not out to make anyone at the table uncomfortable.

But if everyone's game, anything's on.

Quote from: PakaThe table I game at sets its barometer at the level of the most squeamish person at the table.  We're not out to make anyone at the table uncomfortable.

I don't see anyone here in this thread looking to do that.

Quote from: Serious PaulI don't see anyone here in this thread looking to do that.

It wasn't an accusation at all towards anyone.  Just a statement of how we decide what's kosher at our table is all.

Quote from: lachekRequiem for a Dream tell a story about addictions and obsessions, where the entirely sympathetic protagonists do awful things to themselves and others and slowly sink face-first into a disgusting, horrible pit of a life.

The latter was painful to watch but also incredibly moving - entertaining, in a way, because some emotional buttons were pushed.

I found Requim for a Dream to be about as sophisticated, nuanced, and meaningful as American Pie II. It's a prime example of the popular fallacy in vogue in pop culture these days that if you want to make a serious film, you need to grab the audience by the hair and jam their faces into a pile of shit. Extreme horror =/= reality or seriousness, even when it comes to issues like addiction. Addiction is horrible, but it's also grim, depressing, and ultimately very, very boring. Sexing it up and pumping the audience full of adrenelin and nausea is not serious filmmaking. Heck, you could go all the way back to Days of Wine and Roses for a more sophisticated, authentic, and meaningful depiction of addiction. But I suppose a lot of today's audience simply cannot respond emotionally to a situation unless they're shocked and emotionally manipulated in the most crude fashion.

And from the sounds of some of the storytelling APs I've read dealing with 'issues', the RPG scene displays the same crudity in its 'mature explorations' . The common model seems to be shocking = serious, brutal = moving, and transgressive = sophisticated.

Maybe there are some storyteller groups who tell meaningful stories in a serious and emotionally nuanced manner. But given how rare it is for even exceptionally talented and devoted artists to pull off that feat, I remain skeptical.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI don't think I'd want to play in your game, and I'd be apprehensive about hearing about it in any more detail. But you aren't, as far as I know, posting detailed accounts or making pretentious claims about the aesthetic or moral depth of your play.

Does that mean that the decision to expose one's "work" is something I factor into my judgment of the "work" itself? Yes, it does.

Excellent point. The really offensive thing about Baker's Poison'd posts isn't so much the subject matter, which doesn't rise much above the depravities adolescent boys dream up to gross each other out. It's the attitude that making up vulgur sado-porn stories with your friends is an aesthetically and morally sophisticated way to spend a few yours. It isn't. It may be cathartic, especially if you have subliminated sado-masochistist urges that you can't bring out any other way. But it isn't sophisticated or beautiful or brave. It's really kinda pathetic.

Quote from: HaffrungI found Requim for a Dream to be about as sophisticated, nuanced, and meaningful as American Pie II. It's a prime example of the popular fallacy in vogue in pop culture these days that if you want to make a serious film, you need to grab the audience by the hair and jam their faces into a pile of shit. Extreme horror =/= reality or seriousness, even when it comes to issues like addiction. Addiction is horrible, but it's also grim, depressing, and ultimately very, very boring. Sexing it up and pumping the audience full of adrenelin and nausea is not serious filmmaking. Heck, you could go all the way back to Days of Wine and Roses for a more sophisticated, authentic, and meaningful depiction of addiction. But I suppose a lot of today's audience simply cannot respond emotionally to a situation unless they're shocked and emotionally manipulated in the most crude fashion.

Cool, to each his own. Like I said, stuff like that would be cool at my gaming table but that doesn't mean it has to be at yours if it's not nuanced enough for you. Calling the movie shallow torture porn is fine, of course - the fact that 84 out of 100 professional movie reviewers disagree with you doesn't mean you're wrong.

Quote from: James J SkachAhh...well then...we part ways...

EDIT: And Tony, please don't PM me.  We'll have any conversation about this or anything else in public. Thanks.

I participated in the Poison'd thread (tBP) and my views are there, am I on the hostile/degenerate gamer list too, James?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI participated in the Poison'd thread (tBP) and my views are there, am I on the hostile/degenerate gamer list too, James?

I'm not interested in wading through that thread for looking for posts by you. Can you give a concise summary?

Quote from: gleichmanI'm not interested in wading through that thread for looking for posts by you. Can you give a concise summary?

:shrug: if you're not interested in wading through the thread gleichman, I ain't going to trawl through it to see if I'm on your list or not. (My opinions are all over the place is the concise summary)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R:shrug: if you're not interested in wading through the thread gleichman, I ain't going to trawl through it to see if I'm on your list or not. (My opinions are all over the place is the concise summary)

A very poor answer this. What am I to make of it?

I see three options:

1. David R is a trouble maker who tosses opinions on all sides in order to create the most flames?

2. David R doesn't actually know his own opinion, or has done the Kerry Nuance Dance to the point where he was against the concept before he was for it (or was it the reverse)?

3. David R is embrassed by his RPGNet posts, doesn't really feel he can stand behind them and is now worried that he's getting fallout here?

Quote from: gleichmanA very poor answer this. What am I to make of it?

I see three options:

1. David R is a trouble maker who tosses opinions on all sides in order to create the most flames?

2. David R doesn't actually know his own opinion, or has done the Kerry Nuance Dance to the point where he was against the concept before he was for it (or was it the reverse)?

3. David R is embrassed by his RPGNet posts, doesn't really feel he can stand behind them and is now worried that he's getting fallout here?

Anyone who has read my posts here or there (tBP) know that gleichman's options are all wrong.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAnyone who has read my posts here or there (tBP) know that gleichman's options are all wrong.

Given your dodge as to the nature of those posts, and your refusal to give summary of what your position on this question of rpg play is- I flatly don't care if those options are wrong.

You're acting in bad faith in any event. So yes, you're going on my list of posters too stupid to pay attention to. James can make up his own mind in his own way of course.

Quote from: gleichmanGiven your dodge as to the nature of those posts, and your refusal to give summary of what your position on this question of rpg play is- I flatly don't care if those options are wrong.

You're acting in bad faith in any event. So yes, you're going on my list of posters too stupid to pay attention to. James can make up his own mind in his own way of course.

You never asked a question gleichman. You got a question ask it. Don't stick your nose into posts not addressed to you.

Regards,
David R