This came up in another thread (here: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=595405#post595405). Figured if anyone really wants to debate the meaning of Munchkin (or any of the other terms that came up there) might be better to do it in a new thread.

So, what is Munchkin?

It's basically a powergamer, and hints towards a Monty Haul type of play, to me.

Ever try to run an oWoD game, and one player shows up for the game armed with a backpack full of supplements and then uses little crunchy bits from all of them to make a character that makes no sense but is a combat monster? That's a munchkin. See also the 2nd edition Players handbooks for AD&D 2E, and the entirety of D&D 3.5.

A thread about the game would have been more productive.

A term I just realized I haven't uttered without being in reference to the card game in years.  Now I'm trying to figure out why.

Anyway, it's a player who abuses the rules and the other participants of the game in order to create an effective character.  This can include outright cheating, either at the table or away from it, but also includes metagame actions like taking advantage of a GM with a less comprehensive knowledge of the system to make a character that's legal within the rules but powerful in ways that may go against the intent of the campaign.

It also implies some level of dissonance within the group.  A table full of players doing that aren't going to call each other munchkins except out of irony.

The only definition I've ever heard or used was for a person whose primary goal was to eek out every possible + and bonus as possible, with little regard to group dynamics, role-playing, story, or any other aspect traditionally part of the role-playing experience other than + to hit and how much damage you did per round.  In fact, oftentimes the munchkin would actively go against the other players if it meant an extra bonus for his character or if something the players did hindered the munchkin at all.

I've been using that definition since the 80s, so I imagine I was there towards the beginning and thus have a pretty good idea about the actual definition as it was originally used.

That's why I think it's pretty funny when a munchkin tries to change the definition from what everyone else has used for decades.  Sort of like a racist who tries to say they aren't racist because they are changing the definition of what one is.

Min-Maxer, Powergamer, CharOper, Brian from KoDT (who am I kidding everyone in KoDT except BA, Sarah, Gordo, and the actor guy.) etc.

Dan's right though, the cardgame is much more entertaining, real Munchkins are very tedious, as evidenced by many recent threads.

EDIT: Rofl, now I see where this came from.  Goddamn, that is hilarious.  To anyone who isn't a munchkin, it's fucking obvious what one is, but what does the word mean inside the Munchkin sub-culture?  Something different as levels of munchkinism obviously become stratified.  Jesus Christ, this is a Sociology mid-term come to life.

:popcorn:

There are a number of related terms.  Since they're all often uses as pejoratives, they get muddied pretty easily.  Sort of like nerd and dork.  They're both kinda socially awkward, but nerds and dorks really aren't the same thing - but that doesn't stop most people from using them interchangeably.  Just because that's common usage doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

So some useful definitions:

Optimizer - Someone who works to make the character effective.  This doesn't mean they always have an effective character - just that's it's more effective than it usually is.  So an optimizer might make a 'battle chef' and make the character actually 'roughly equal' to the rest of the party, but if he had made an optimized druid, it would be much better.  Optimizers try to make their character as effective as possible within an established objective.  An optimizer will describe his 'build' and explain how he accomplished his aims.

PowerGamer - Someone who likes to use the games to make truly effective characters.  You can distinguish a PowerGamer from an Optimizer because he'll never use a 'worthless class' to achieve a particular aim.  Essentially, a PowerGamer is like an Optimizer with no tolerance for 'weak choices'.  A PowerGamer wants to 'be the best they can be', so they tend to consider the game a competition of the Party versus the challenges the DM throws at them.  They tend to like other players to also build effective characters and then work out synergies between them.  PowerGamers don't tend to mind if someone else plays a powerful character.  In fact, they encourage it.  They'll often say something like 'you play the Cleric, I'll play the Paladin, and here's how we'll combine to be unstoppable'.  

Munchkin - An immature player.  It requires no systems knowledge to be a munchkin.  Munchkins like to pretend to have rule knowledge, and they like to make 'twinky builds' that are actually illegal using the rules as written.  They 'forget' rules that are inconvenient.  The best example I have from real life is for a 3.5 20th-level Epic one-off adventure.  This player showed up with a 20th level character that also had +20 LA from templates.  Basically, if he had applied the rules correctly, he'd be a 1st level character with lots of templates.  When I told him that he could play the character, but instead of 400 hit points, he'd have 8, he left the game and was not missed.  Munchkins want to 'be the best' so they do consider the game competitive between players.  

Min-Maxer - Min-maxing is simply picking areas to specialize to make yourself as effective as possible.  Min-Maxers will give up something, often something important, to 'break' the game somewhere else.  The character that can deal 400 damage in a single attack but has a +4 Will save is probably a Min-Maxer.  Within their area of speciality, they are 'superb', but taken as a whole, they have some glaring weaknesses that usually make the character 'unplayable' in a standard campaign.  Many Min-Maxers also tend to be Munchkins, and 'pretend' their weakness doesn't exist or 'cheat' to avoid having their weaknesses come up in play.  A min-maxed Munchkin might say 'oh, you can't charm my character, I'm an elf.  They're immune to enchantments'.  If you look up the rule, you'll see that they're only immune to sleep and get a bonus on other enchantments.  

Optimizers tend to be okay in most groups because they're trying to make their character effective, not necessarily show everyone else up.  If the other characters are all 'incompetent', the Optimizer may shine more than intended and look like a PowerGamer.  

A PowerGamer loves playing in groups with other PowerGamers.  With a group incapable of making effective characters, they tend to have trouble.  The DM can't both challenge the PowerGamer and the rest of the party - anything that is a challenge for the PowerGamer is insurmountable for the party without him.  In these games, the PowerGamer ends up facing the 'boss' while the rest of the party fights the 'mooks'.  Otherwise, the PowerGamer leaves or possibly, the rest of the players start making more effective characters.  

Munchkins hate playing with other Munchkins.  In fact, having more than one in a group is nearly impossible.  Unless they're siblings or something, they'll tend to drive each other away until only one is left.  Munchkins do need to be better than everyone else (and they'll cheat to ensure that it happens).  You'll know you're playing with a munchkin when he rolls his third Nat 20 for the evening on his third 'you need a 20 to succeed' roll.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595431Munchkin - An immature player.  It requires no systems knowledge to be a munchkin.  Munchkins like to pretend to have rule knowledge, and they like to make 'twinky builds' that are actually illegal using the rules as written.  They 'forget' rules that are inconvenient.  The best example I have from real life is for a 3.5 20th-level Epic one-off adventure.  This player showed up with a 20th level character that also had +20 LA from templates.  Basically, if he had applied the rules correctly, he'd be a 1st level character with lots of templates.  When I told him that he could play the character, but instead of 400 hit points, he'd have 8, he left the game and was not missed.  Munchkins want to 'be the best' so they do consider the game competitive between players. .

Sorry, but this is not true.  Munchkin was around long before 3e, and most of your requirements don't apply.


What we have here folks is people who are munchkins, but don't want to be called munchkins, come up with different, less "insulting sounding" words.  Sort of like the janitor who is sanitation engineer.

Fact is, is that you're all a bunch of munchkins.  Making up your own definitions that are contrary to decades of established precedence doesn't change that.  Nor does replacing it with a less bad sounding term, like "optimizer".  Deal with it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;595435Sorry, but this is not true.  Munchkin was around long before 3e, and most of your requirements don't apply.


What we have here folks is people who are munchkins, but don't want to be called munchkins, come up with different, less "insulting sounding" words.  Sort of like the janitor who is sanitation engineer.

Fact is, is that you're all a bunch of munchkins.  Making up your own definitions that are contrary to decades of established precedence doesn't change that.  Nor does replacing it with a less bad sounding term, like "optimizer".  Deal with it.

Or the term is a bit of gamer folklore with an accordingly fluid definition.

I suppose saying the only reason people want to change the term is because they're all closet munchkins makes for a more interesting fight though, so let's go with that as being true.

Um.  How dare you.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;595423The only definition I've ever heard or used was for a person whose primary goal was to eek out every possible + and bonus as possible, with little regard to group dynamics, role-playing, story, or any other aspect traditionally part of the role-playing experience other than + to hit and how much damage you did per round.  In fact, oftentimes the munchkin would actively go against the other players if it meant an extra bonus for his character or if something the players did hindered the munchkin at all.

I've been using that definition since the 80s, so I imagine I was there towards the beginning and thus have a pretty good idea about the actual definition as it was originally used.

That's how I've used it and have heard and seen it used since the early 1980s.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595431There are a number of related terms.  Since they're all often uses as pejoratives, they get muddied pretty easily.  Sort of like nerd and dork.  They're both kinda socially awkward, but nerds and dorks really aren't the same thing - but that doesn't stop most people from using them interchangeably.  Just because that's common usage doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

.

But what are you basing your definition on? These are coined terms that grew and evolved over time and are not even in the dictionary as far as I can tell...common useage would seem to be what we ought to follow here. You can't just spout off a list of various terms and meanings and assert those are their definitions. Just because there are more granular variations of meaning in your circles, that doesn't change how the word is used elsewhere or make it wrong.

To use an example, take the word Yankee. In the states it means someone from the north. But inside new england it means someone of anglo stock who is a descendant of the early settlers. Outside the US, it can refer simply to Americans as a whole. Just because it means something rather specific here in Boston, that doesn't mean southerners are wrong when they call me a yankee.

Hey, it has a wikipedia page!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(role-playing_games)

QuoteIn gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills", and grab the most loot, no matter how detrimental their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers.

The term was applied originally to young gamers by older players, presumably because the connotation of being short and ridiculous (like the Munchkins in the book and film The Wizard of Oz) made it an apt label for the childish gamers it was applied to. However, before long it came to refer to anyone who engaged in a juvenile gaming style no matter their height, age or experience.

Munchkins are often accused of twinking or roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.

A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities.

A game master who constantly awards players large amounts of treasure or powerful magic items without proper backstory or justification can also be called a munchkin master. Such campaigns are sometimes called 'Monty Haul' campaigns, after Monty Hall, the host of an old game show.

In France, the munchkin is known as a Gros Bill (Fat Bill or Big Bill), from the nickname of a Parisian player who played with roleplaying game author François Marcela-Froideval. Marcela-Froideval later wrote an article about this type of player with colleagues Didier Guiserix and Daniel Duverneuil in the leading roleplaying game magazine Casus Belli, causing the widespread use of that nickname among French powerplayers.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;595450But what are you basing your definition on? These are coined terms that grew and evolved over time and are not even in the dictionary as far as I can tell...common useage would seem to be what we ought to follow here. You can't just spout off a list of various terms and meanings and assert those are their definitions. Just because there are more granular variations of meaning in your circles, that doesn't change how the word is used elsewhere or make it wrong.

To use an example, take the word Yankee. In the states it means someone from the north. But inside new england it means someone of anglo stock who is a descendant of the early settlers. Outside the US, it can refer simply to Americans as a whole. Just because it means something rather specific here in Boston, that doesn't mean southerners are wrong when they call me a yankee.

There's a term for this I can't remember, but essentially, as the group size is changed, the word is redefined.
 

• When your group size is the world, Americans are Yankees.
• When your group size is America, where under that first definition, all are Yankees, the definition changes to becomes all Northerners.
• When your group size is North Easterners, where under the second definition, all are Yankees, the definition changes to become people from New England.
• When your group size is New England, it then changes to those descended from the original colonials.

This happens for various reasons, depending on word.  In this case, Munchkin is a disparaging term, so when the group is all Munchkins, they invent other terms for themselves and redefine Munchkin to refer to a subclass they want to disparage.

Most racial and cultural epithets get redefined in the same way.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;595406So, what is Munchkin?

My understanding of the term "munchkin" was forged during my early days on FidoNet and Usenet. It was heavily influenced by:

Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins
The 35 Types of FRP Player
The 28 Types of Game Master

Munchkin, in general, refers to an immature player. (Hence the "munchkin" pejorative.) As a result, its use can become somewhat amorphous as it gets applied to any sort of immature behavior.

But in the late '80s and early '90s, the term seemed to most consistently be applied to players who wanted twinked out characters that could trivially dispatch opponents. This usually involved either cheating or monty haul treasures or both. (The latter being reflected in things like "I totally rolled six 18's in a row naturally on all three of my characters". The latter being reflected in things like "the six goblins were carrying a +5 holy avenger".)

This is distinct from powergaming: Powergamers want to maximize the effectiveness of their characters, but they want to do it legitimately and they want to earn it. They wouldn't cheat to achieve their goals and they would feel cheated if the GM rewarded them disproportionately. Powergamers also generally want to be legitimately challenged, whereas munchkins want the easy victories with excessive rewards.

The gray area between powergamers and munchkins tends to be filled largely with the degree to which they're willing to take advantage of exploits in the rules. True powergamers would tend to look at obviously broken rules and say "right, well, let's fix that". Then you have a long, gray slide until you get to "Pun-Pun is book-legal, so I should totally be allowed to play him" (which gets you pretty firmly into munchkin territory).