Just because a lot of people that talk about it don't like it doesn't mean that the term is terribly negative.  

It is pretty descriptive.  

In 'real' magical tea party, the little girl hosting tells the 'guests' what is happening.  As long as everyone is having fun, it's not a bad thing - but it is a thing.  

In an RPG, some people like that.  Storytellers, in particular, like 'magic tea party'.  

Other people prefer a more rules-oriented approach.  

What is strange is that people here are against 'story-games' because they give PCs 'narrative control' in some form; they're against 'rules-based games'  because they think you should 'play the game, not the rules'.  That means they like the GM to describe what's happening and make 'reasonable decisions' without reference to rules.  

So they like 'Magic Tea Party'.  For some reason, they don't like that description for their preferred gaming style.  I don't know why they'd be sensitive about it; it's a metaphor, but not a particularly insulting one.

Yeah. Totally not pejorative.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;671032So they like 'Magic Tea Party'.  For some reason, they don't like that description for their preferred gaming style.  I don't know why they'd be sensitive about it; it's a metaphor, but not a particularly insulting one.

You are a smart poster. I am confident you understand fully why this would be perceived as an insult, and why it is an insult.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;671032Just because a lot of people that talk about it don't like it doesn't mean that the term is terribly negative.  

It is pretty descriptive.  

In 'real' magical tea party, the little girl hosting tells the 'guests' what is happening.  As long as everyone is having fun, it's not a bad thing - but it is a thing.  

In an RPG, some people like that.  Storytellers, in particular, like 'magic tea party'.  

Other people prefer a more rules-oriented approach.  

What is strange is that people here are against 'story-games' because they give PCs 'narrative control' in some form; they're against 'rules-based games'  because they think you should 'play the game, not the rules'.  That means they like the GM to describe what's happening and make 'reasonable decisions' without reference to rules.  

So they like 'Magic Tea Party'.  For some reason, they don't like that description for their preferred gaming style.  I don't know why they'd be sensitive about it; it's a metaphor, but not a particularly insulting one.

There may not be anything inherently insulting about the words, but delivery matters. There isn't a phrase in the english language (or any other, I would imagine) that can't be turned in to an insult.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;671019MTP (Magical Tea Party) is a short-hand invented by The Gaming Den (http://www.tgdmb.com/) to describe a situation where there are no 'rules' to adjudicate the situation.  While it is generally disliked, it's not really a pejorative term - most people admit that there will be situations that the rules don't cover - but that those situations should tend to be based on uncommon situations.  Things like combat and exploration and social interaction are expected to be common in a game like Dungeons and Dragons, and therefore we'd expect rules for them.

Closely related to MTP is the term 'suck the DMs cock'.  That's the pejorative.  

The idea is that if you can get the DM to agree that your action is reasonable (because there are no rules) you can succeed by gaining favor.  If you want to 'win', you can suck the DMs cock and he'll agree that whatever you suggest is 'reasonable'.

I don't know anything about that website, but what you have described does not sound like the way adults socialize and discuss things.

I can have discussions with my boss without metaphorically sucking her vagina, and there certainly are not rules governing real life.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;671032In an RPG, some people like that.  Storytellers, in particular, like 'magic tea party'.  

Other people prefer a more rules-oriented approach.  

What is strange is that people here are against 'story-games' because they give PCs 'narrative control' in some form; they're against 'rules-based games'  because they think you should 'play the game, not the rules'.  That means they like the GM to describe what's happening and make 'reasonable decisions' without reference to rules.  

So they like 'Magic Tea Party'. .

Let me point out your mistake.  Coming up with rulings instead of referencing a hard rule is not storytelling like you think it is.  In rulings not rules, the DM is making reasonable decisions on what the PCs are doing.  The DMs are not "telling a story" to the players.  In rulings vs rules, the DM is a referee, not a storyteller.  When you learn that difference, you won't make comments like the above.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;671032So they like 'Magic Tea Party'.  For some reason, they don't like that description for their preferred gaming style.  I don't know why they'd be sensitive about it; it's a metaphor, but not a particularly insulting one.

This is awesome. One of the best parts of GNS theory was when theory people would tell you that calling your favorite game "incoherent" wasn't pejorative -- just descriptive!

And if you found it insulting, you were projecting! Or overly sensitive.

It was great -- obvious bullshit. Like your statement here.

If a lot of people fondly prefer to their preferred play style as "Magical Tea Party," then I'd be willing to consider what you're saying here.

As it is, it looks clearly dismissive and belittling -- an insult. Not as bad as sucking the DM's dick, but still unambiguously negative.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: Old Geezer;670173Go ask Alice, I think she'll know.

Ok, this made me giggle.

Quote from: Old One Eye;670689The name sounds familiar.  Did he author anything a person would remember?

Not anything a casual gamer that actually runs and plays games cares about it seems. Dude forgets games aren't a probability exercise though solid math is always helpful in making a game engine run nice. Big difference.

Quote from: spaceLem;671001I don't get where all this level appropriate challenge nonsense comes from -- nowhere in any of the books does it say "thou shalt only deliver level appropriate challenges to thy players". I think it's intended just as a guideline to judge how difficult the encounter is.

Or is the GM putting ancient red dragons in the cave behind the sign marked "Wotchout, anchient redde dragone liveth yonder" just MTP?

In fact yes I believe so. This all came about because Dnd became massively popular with 12-13 year old geek boys with inferiority complexes in the 1980's in particular it's a backlash against socially inept players and GM's. Notice how females tend to play White Wolf games more than others? Those games are the epitome of MTP, especially my preference Mage. To even play that game there is an unspoken social contract no rules can cover, not even MtAw comes close to it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;671046Let me point out your mistake.  Coming up with rulings instead of referencing a hard rule is not storytelling like you think it is.  In rulings not rules, the DM is making reasonable decisions on what the PCs are doing.  The DMs are not "telling a story" to the players.  In rulings vs rules, the DM is a referee, not a storyteller.  When you learn that difference, you won't make comments like the above.

Yeah, pretty much this. Dead on.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;671022Yeah, Magic Tea Party certainly doesn't sound like a neutral term. The whole "sucking gm c**k" business frankly says more about people invoking the phrase than anything else.

OK, so there are no rules, but there are safewords.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;671112OK, so there are no rules, but there are safewords.

JG

They can say what the like. There are plenty of strong arguments for using rules in a game, but when those arguments are reduced to "magic tea party" or performing sexual favors for the GM, I find it harder to take the people making them seriously. The former is just an insult, so easy enough to ignore, but the latter suggests the maturity level of a twelve year old. The same for terms like 4vengers or accusing people who like rules of having aspergers. I usually tune folks out these days when they engage in that kind of rhetoric (even if I agree with their basic point). To me it just illustrates the person isn't interested in hearing the alternative point of view at all or having an actual discussion.

A Kansas-based RPG publisher just announced that their house system powering all eventual releases would be called "Magical Tea Party".
(All the cool names for game systems were already taken; "d20 System", "d6 System", "Basic Role Play". "Storyteller", "Silhouette", "ICON", "Fuzion", etc.).
Apparently it is an ultra simulatoric d% system.

Their first game using MTP will be Wonderland.

People can take insult for whatever reason they want.  Yes, when most people on the Gaming Den talk about Magical Tea Party, it's not high praise.  While it has a place, it is almost universally seen as a failure in the system.  

Lord Mistborn pulled a quote from Frank that may express the Den's View of it best:

Quote from: FrankTrollmanMTP is usually used in the context of "that's just MTP". Magical Teaparty is the first RPG element. It's free. And we can use it to mind caulk anything. That's not revolutionary, and the results aren't predictable.

So when someone says they have a cool system of handling something, and that "system" is MTP, it would not be unusual at all for someone on the Den to say "That's just MTP." And even though tone doesn't carry over text on the interwebs terribly well, I want to assure you that the sentence would be absolutely dripping with scorn. But it wouldn't be dismissive and contemptuous because MTP is inherently bad, it would be such because the delivered product would be literally the equal of what a five year old could do.

If a five year old does a stick figure in crayon, it is charming and goes on the fridge. If a grown man does one and asks why I don't want it on my fridge, I don't think that needs a reasoned response. It deserves a dismissive and cruel comment. And I am sure that it would get one.

But what MTP is, fundamentally, is worse than every single other rule in your game. At least, it fucking better be. Because MTP is free and takes up zero space. So absolutely any rule you write that isn't better than MTP is something you should cut in editing. Which doesn't mean MTP is "bad" or that it doesn't have a place. It just means that every single rule you include in your game is supposed to be better than MTP.

-Frank