Quote from: yosemitemike on March 19, 2025, 07:51:09 PMNow we have something like the Black Company being called low fantasy because magic is scarce. 

Black Company is called fantasy just because it has swords. It's not even that in my opinion. Just military fiction with the weapons swapped out.

For those into the OSR, do you think the multiple meanings of the word that "R" stands for factors into the potential confusion?   Renaissance, revival, rules, etc.

Quote from: RNGm on March 20, 2025, 07:56:34 AMFor those into the OSR, do you think the multiple meanings of the word that "R" stands for factors into the potential confusion?   Renaissance, revival, rules, etc.

No

It is the fact it is used by a kaleidoscope of different individuals and companies centered around classic edition mechanics and themes. This is fundamentally unlike anything in the industry or hobby except in one case. Most terms are the result of marketing or branding efforts and dominated creatively by whoever originated it.

The exception?

RPG

RPG was an organic term used to describe the hobby and industry that sprang up after the release of OD&D, whose exact definition is still a matter of debate to this day. Like OSR, the debate is centered around things "like D&D," and heated arguments are over where the boundaries lie.

For OSR like RPG, it ultimately doesn't matter where boundaries are. While useful in some context you still have to do the extra things in terms of marketing and writing to explain what the product/work is about. RPG or OSR are not magic wands that will grant useful knowledge about what you did. You always to go a step further to explain what kind of RPG you are offer or what kind of OSR product.

One further comment

The reason that Old School Renaissance/Revival/Ruckus/Revolution gain traction wasn't because of the exact title.

It was because of its shorthand, namely OSR vs. TSR.

When you say it, it just sounds right. Plus it fun in that you can kitbash all kinds of evocative logos and design with the initials. 

There are two main issues with the use of OSR. One is using Old School to describe a classic D&D centric niche. This has rubbed many the wrong way since day one.

My view is tough, unlike classic D&D, Classic Traveller, Classic Runequest, Rolemaster, etc. Never needed a revival, their IP owners, and hobby communities managed to keep them alive across decades. The reason and how it was kept alive meant that many of the popular old school systems didn't need the help that classic D&D did.  Sure there were a few like The Fantasy Trip that were in a similar boat to D&D. But once somebody was allowed to handle the IP like Steve Jackson reclaiming his copyright. They often come roaring back.

The second is that people often use the label OSR to lump different groups who play, promote, and publish for classic Dungeons &D Dragon together that don't want to be associated with each other. In some cases, it involves personality clashes, but in most cases, it is a result of incompatible creative agendas. Sure, they are using the same classic edition mechanics and themes, but some groups do very different things with the material. So they don't like being labeled the same.

But people will still do it anyway.

I'm going to answer this before reading too much so it doesn't sway what I write. I don't profess to be an expert in this but I will state what I currently believe as fact for the purpose of answering the OP. OSR is first and foremost the early editions of D&D and all the innumerable clones connected to them. The term exists to differentiate between later D&D editions that are more popular. The beginning of the 21st century marks a sort of divide between old and new when it comes to gaming, though 3.5 is over two decades old now which probably lends to the confusion and blurring of the line. Sci-fi games built on top of old D&D rules further blurred the line, and it's interesting to note that West End Games' Ghostbusters doesn't seem right to label as OSR for a few reasons (not to mention it pioneered narrative D6 which is seen as a modern trend currently). It doesn't have enough crunch, grittiness, and obscure roll tables to really feel like OSR. West End Games' Star Wars feels like it sits squarely on the line-- old enough and ticks many of the boxes but perhaps not gritty enough and too futuristic (even though it takes place long, long ago and all that)? I'm not sure anyone would struggle to call Metamorphosis Alpha OSR, but it was created by TSR, which brings me to another point. It may be that OSR and TSR are similar acronyms and create an association in our minds which was deliberate or accidental but certainly lends to lumping TSR games into the OSR category without question. You gotta have those weird roll tables and charts to compare stuff against, though. Something doesn't feel OSR to me personally if you're not referencing some kind of huge table frequently. Those old superhero games may or may not be OSR, but they certainly feel mechanically so. As a disclaimer, I have very little experience with actually playing systems before the turn of the century so feel free to correct what I've stated.

I group games into the D&D family if they have two these three things.

1.  Six stats of STR DEX CON INT WIZ CHA. 

2.  Characters all have a defense stat called Armor Class.

3.  Magic uses Vancian memorization slots.

I say you need two out of three to be OSR because many house rules that have been introduced over the years swap out one of those. A roll-under stat system instead of enemies AC, magic that use power points or spells per day for magic, martial classes gaining stamina points and training to pull off special moves from a list (it's their version of spells), and so on. 

Some games are so modified they're unique now.  Palladium Fantasy started as a HEAVY modification of D&D, but it's divergent enough to be considered as a new game. The Black Hack series is also far enough away to be considered a new game, but it's not for some reason. 

I get that the distinction is not clear.  It's just the way I think.