Quote from: jhkim on March 11, 2025, 03:06:22 PMThis is what I'm stuck with in Socratic-DM's question in the OP. I can understand saying that the OSR includes games that are in the same genre as D&D (dungeon-crawling fantasy) and have some common feel, even if they don't have classes or six attributes or d20 attacks or saving throws.

But if we then extend that to other genres, then what does it mean to be OSR?

I'm singling Jhkim out even though you're not the source of the problem, but I think this goes for everyone in the prior thread, but I wanted to make a thread that actually addressed the question, I should have suspected it would be over run by pedants and people wanting to basically bypass the question and argue about what is an OSR game, so this thread is for that topic now.

If pedantry was a sin, a good lot of you would be having a one way ticket to Hell, thankfully for you I'm not God.



I have created a handy-dandy chart that roughly covers where I think most OSR games land, with a couple jokes inserted, the only ones I'd argue are for sure OSR games are the ones in PP, NP, PN, NN, I'll also include PR because I actually couldn't think of anything that went there and it blurs with NN and PN a lot.

As to RP, I think that one people could genuinely disagree on, I count things like Maze Rats, but I wouldn't pin my pride on it the same way some of the others.

As for the people asking "where is Traveller?" my answer is you're excluded because OSR has always been about TSR era D&D, it's the thing the got the most attention, and including it basically means anything from the late 70s to early 80s counts, and that's not a useful definition. Also you smell and any game that takes 40 minutes to make a character and that also has a chance you die at character creation is taking the piss.

Fun Fact: every game in the chart is something I own in at least PDF form, Humble Bundle is nice.

Aright now let the bloodsports and debates start.

You've basically just made a chart that says any RPG is an OSR game, so might as well just stop there. Good job.

Quote from: Brad on March 11, 2025, 08:19:21 PMYou've basically just made a chart that says any RPG is an OSR game, so might as well just stop there. Good job.

You're the kind of person that answers rhetorical questions.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on March 11, 2025, 08:44:34 PM

Quote from: Brad on March 11, 2025, 08:19:21 PMYou've basically just made a chart that says any RPG is an OSR game, so might as well just stop there. Good job.

You're the kind of person that answers rhetorical questions.

Am I wrong? Claiming you have joke entries is fine, but then what's the actual point?

Quote from: Brad on March 11, 2025, 09:06:18 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on March 11, 2025, 08:44:34 PM

Quote from: Brad on March 11, 2025, 08:19:21 PMYou've basically just made a chart that says any RPG is an OSR game, so might as well just stop there. Good job.

You're the kind of person that answers rhetorical questions.

Am I wrong? Claiming you have joke entries is fine, but then what's the actual point?

You evidently don't understand what an structural/Doctrinal axis chart is. but you came in swinging all the same, you should take your own signatures advice.

Here I'll use another chart as an example



This Chart is about what a PDW is (portable Defense Weapon) in PP column we see the FN P90, everyone with a military background agrees a P90 is a PDW, period, all the other entries are just descending examples where the argument becomes fuzzier and fuzzier, this is not something the OP claims makes any and all things a PDW, an M242 Bushmaster is not a PDW and nobody would consider it that, it's to show a logical extreme.



Here is one for sandwiches.

Where would a hotpocket appear on the sandwich alignment chart? Also I like games that fit into the top left 4 grid spaces of the OSR alignment chart.

So, based on your charts, if you take a copy of Labyrinth Lord and a copy of Basic Fantasy and you place a copy of WEG d6 Star Wars between them, you get Stars Without Number (or a hot dog)?

I feel like for me it's moreso a structure based definition than a doctrine based definition that I am drawn to.

I have no earthly idea what the spirit of old school roleplaying is, because not only was I not alive back then to experience it personally, but even those who were indeed alive back then cannot seem to agree en masse. What I do know is that the rules and systems from back then are things that survive to this day, and I can roughly tell if an adventure, expansion, system or product is compatible with them.

I feel like as we move further and further away from that era, the exact experiential vibes will fade but the mechanical systems will remain. So yeah, compatibility and/or extensibility with original TSR content is my understanding of the term. And I think that's likely to grow more and more relevant as time passes.

I find the OSR alignment chart amusing; it's like admitting the answer you seek is Lovecraftian and if you actually could answer, "what is an OSR game" you would also start mumbling gibberish right before a Shoggoth appears out of a summoning circle you unknowingly traced during your rantings. /CoC PTSD

In all seriousness, OSR is in theory a bunch of GMing advice and in practice, it's what people who call themselves OSR players will buy and not complain about afterwards. Pretty much the only thing people agree to not complain about is the medieval sword and sorcery genre using D20 mechanics with a mostly familiar D&D attribute tree. Mechanics on top can generally be changed ad hoc, in part because it's D20 and we're talking about players and GMs with decades of experience specifically in D20 games. If the GM doesn't like one the designer wants to include...YEET!

Quote from: Fheredin on March 11, 2025, 10:21:50 PMMechanics on top can generally be changed ad hoc, in part because it's D20 and we're talking about players and GMs with decades of experience specifically in D20 games. If the GM doesn't like one the designer wants to include...YEET!

This sounds to me like the spirit of OSR. Mess with the rules until fun/immersion is achieved.

I have heard two different definitions of OSR:

1. A game that is compatible with original TSR modules or a module/adventure that is compatible with games that are compatible with original TSR modules.

2. Any RPG game published before 1988.

I have also come across the term NuSR in reference to modern games designed for classic style fantasy gaming and dungeon crawling but mechanically incompatible with TSR modules.

The 1988 limit is set (to the best of my knowledge) because of the introduction of Cyberpunk games by R. Talsorian games in 1988 that were a complete departure from the dungeon crawling aspect of early RPGs and of war games from whence RPGs derived.

I don't have a dog in the fight, personally.  However, OSR has become a marketing badge that largely follows definition 1. in most cases.

I think that the introduction of Cyberpunk 2013 and Cyberpunk 2020 was the best thing to happen to RPG gaming since TSR published the original D&D booklets.  It has informed my play style and shaped my GM style quite a bit.  I even play (and run) OSR games with these elements.

FYI:  Traveller uses the 2d6 system that was popular for a lot of war games at the time.  D&D 3e came out in 2000.

I know gamers love to argue/fight about pretty much everything.

When I use the term, I mean "An attempt to recreate any pre-3rd Edition of Dungeons & Dragons, without or without limited house rules incorporated, utilizing the OGL".


Also, whoever created the Sandwich chart doesn't seem to be distinguishing between "sandwiched", "wrapped", & "filled" for some reason. Madness!

The top left corner of your chart, is strong.

Quote from: Fheredin on March 11, 2025, 10:21:50 PMPretty much the only thing people agree to not complain about is the medieval sword and sorcery genre using D20 mechanics with a mostly familiar D&D attribute tree.

Do they? That's a start at least: Not D20, not OSR?

Quote from: Man at Arms on March 12, 2025, 12:55:23 AMThe top left corner of your chart, is strong.

Ha, I'm a bottom-left guy myself!

If I can add my 2c:

OSR is "inspired by TSR D&D" by definition.

"Compatible with TSR D&D" is the most useful, IMO.

But the label is used as a "we think we can sell this to the OSR crowd" marker, which is why it sometimes include things like Mork Bork or Traveller clones.

(But you can have sci-fi OSR IMO, since AD&D has rules for Gamma World and Boot Hill conversions).

DCC is barely and doesn't call itself OSR. Cairn/Knave/Etc. are using "NSR" these days.

Knave, which the OP puts in the "any mechanics and any system", still use systems and mechanics that are reminiscent of D&d, such as the six ability scores, saves, HD, etc.