Just to make it easier to Ace a Low Level Opponent, with a Single Blow; at Max Damage.
Leave PC Hit Points, and Monster Stats as they are.
A high damage strike with a Dagger, currently leaves almost any opponent still standing. Kobolds, Goblins, and Untrained NPCs should be totally vulnerable to a high damage strike from a Dagger.
I'm skeptical that someone would die from one stab of a kitchen knife.
I mean, they could kill, but you'd have to have the cooperation of the victim by them just standing there and that's a coup de grace attack (and fatal)
Quote from: JeremyR;1085247I'm skeptical that someone would die from one stab of a kitchen knife.
I mean, they could kill, but you'd have to have the cooperation of the victim by them just standing there and that's a coup de grace attack (and fatal)
A trained PC would have knowledge of human anatomy. As with many things in life; it's all about the location.
Quote from: JeremyR;1085247I'm skeptical that someone would die from one stab of a kitchen knife.
I mean, they could kill, but you'd have to have the cooperation of the victim by them just standing there and that's a coup de grace attack (and fatal)
Part of the problem with trying to model injury in roleplaying games is trying to distinguish between a fatal injury and an instantly incapacitating one.
Most weapons can cause a fatal wound in a single blow, that's what they are designed to do. However, most blows do not cause instant loss of consciousness. This is seldom modeled in RPGs or entertainment media.
Someone can be stabbed in the gut deep enough to nick the abdominal aorta and bleed out over a couple minutes. Hell, I've even personally witnessed someone who was shot clean through the head continue to speak before they died.
It would be tricky to model that in a playable fashion. I can see two paths. Either use hit location rules with additional attached rules for wound severity or use a hit point range for simplicity.
All weapons would have the same maximum damage (instant death), but the "weaker" ones would have a more random range. Larger weapons would cap out the same way but would be less likely to roll low.
I'm just going to use good old hit points, though. I don't care how long it takes for a goblin to lose consciousness after a severing slash to his subclavian artery.
Quote from: Razor 007;1085232Just to make it easier to Ace a Low Level Opponent, with a Single Blow; at Max Damage.
Leave PC Hit Points, and Monster Stats as they are.
A high damage strike with a Dagger, currently leaves almost any opponent still standing. Kobolds, Goblins, and Untrained NPCs should be totally vulnerable to a high damage strike from a Dagger.
Are you talking 5e D&D? Because there are attribute bonuses, critical hits, sneak attack dice etc to add to the damage die.
Good idea for the wrong reason. A better reason is that then we wouldn't be using the d4. :)
Greetings!
Well, according to the book's suggested baseline of average hit points per hit dice, any given Commoner has 1d8 hit points; averaging a 4.
A Dagger does 1d4 damage. In a given melee, two quick stabs and the Commoner dies. If the attacker has +2 Strength modifier, they die in one strike.
That seems pretty reasonable to me.:)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
If you bump every weapon by one die step, you'll typically average +1 damage until you get to big weapons that have 2 or more dice. In the long run, it would tend to hurt PCs; they will be fighting a lot of goblins in the course of their careers; giving all of those enemies a +1 to damage tends to hurt the PCs more than it helps them. Many PCs are going to be able to kill weak opponents with a single blow without the +1 damage - any extra damage beyond what you need to kill them is effectively wasted....
Depending on the edition, critical hits can model more dangerous weapons. If a dagger does 2d4+STR on a critical, it is pretty likely to drop an opponent in a single hit. Again and still, this tends to work out better for team monster. When you're fighting 20 of something, there's a pretty good chance that at least one of them will score a critical hit. If there are only 4-5 PCs, there's a pretty good chance of them scoring at least one critical per encounter, but not necessarily per round.
Quote from: S'mon;1085262Are you talking 5e D&D? Because there are attribute bonuses, critical hits, sneak attack dice etc to add to the damage die.
Any edition, any system, etc. Most Classes don't get to roll Sneak Attack dice.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1085302Good idea for the wrong reason. A better reason is that then we wouldn't be using the d4. :)
Exactly!!!
Quote from: Razor 007;1085232Just to make it easier to Ace a Low Level Opponent, with a Single Blow; at Max Damage.
Leave PC Hit Points, and Monster Stats as they are.
A high damage strike with a Dagger, currently leaves almost any opponent still standing. Kobolds, Goblins, and Untrained NPCs should be totally vulnerable to a high damage strike from a Dagger.
So should humans. A knife can let plenty of your blood out. However, the first thing that happens when combatants meet is that the one with superior reach can attack and the other can't. That is the problem with knives and not, or not so much, damage.
If you rate weapons by damage dice, then players will choose weapons based on damage dice.
If you want low level foes to fail easier, give them less HP.
Or better yet, use morale rules so the Goblin with 2 HP left runs for his worthless goblin life.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1085372If you rate weapons by damage dice, then players will choose weapons based on damage dice.
If you want low level foes to fail easier, give them less HP.
Or better yet, use morale rules so the Goblin with 2 HP left runs for his worthless goblin life.
Yes to all three of these suggestions.
In fact, I prefer class damage to weapon damage for just this reason. If classes have static hit dice, why not static damage dice too? Monster's defaulting to a d8 seems even more reasonable in this case.
Or, we should just grow a pair and play OD&D where everything is a d6 as the Lord intended. :) (I'm guilty of liking OD&D more than I actually play it, sadly.)
Quote from: Beldar;1085254Hell, I've even personally witnessed someone who was shot clean through the head continue to speak before they died.
That's quite an anecdote to drop into an RPG discussion...
Quote from: Kael;1085376Yes to all three of these suggestions.
In fact, I prefer class damage to weapon damage for just this reason. If classes have static hit dice, why not static damage dice too? Monster's defaulting to a d8 seems even more reasonable in this case.
Or, we should just grow a pair and play OD&D where everything is a d6 as the Lord intended. :) (I'm guilty of liking OD&D more than I actually play it, sadly.)
I too like Original Dungeons & Dragons; with its 1d6-1, 1d6, and 1d6+1 weapon damage scale. It helps keep the Dagger relevant.
Quote from: Razor 007;1085427I too like Original Dungeons & Dragons; with its 1d6-1, 1d6, and 1d6+1 weapon damage scale. It helps keep the Dagger relevant.
Those values actually translate to 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8, respectively, so it's not really that different.
Non-Greyhawk OD&D actually had every weapon do 1d6, no exceptions. Only monsters and magic-items were able to increase damage. The theory is that stabbing someone in the chest with dagger should do just as much damage as stabbing someone in the chest with a sword or hitting someone on the head with hammer. You would die, regardless, and hence all do 1d6.
Many people don't like that though since they think a two-handed longsword should be able to kill you easier than a dagger. In reality, both are deadly in the right hands. (Or left hands as it were...) :)
Using class damage you could say that wizards to 1d4 damage, regardless of weapon. 1d6 if two-handed. Likewise:
Thieves = 1d6 damage. 1d8 if two-handed or dual-wield.
Clerics = 1d8 damage. 1d10 if two-handed.
Fighters = 1d10 damage. 1d12 if two-handed. Etc...
Something like that, anyway, the idea being that you basically match the class hit die to a class "damage die."
Quote from: JeremyR;1085247I'm skeptical that someone would die from one stab of a kitchen knife.
I mean, they could kill, but you'd have to have the cooperation of the victim by them just standing there and that's a coup de grace attack (and fatal)
My country's current president suffered an assassination attempt while on campaign.
Single kitchen knife strike to the abdomen. He was immediately incapacitated and would've died if not for prompt medical attention. His intestines were perforated in three places and he was at risk for septicemia.
You'd be surprised at what a knife attack can do.
Here's video of the attack:
[video=youtube;1jO685x3F8E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jO685x3F8E[/youtube]
In O and BX D&D all weapons did 1d6. Expert shifted that so daggers did a d4. Note that everyone had lower HD back then. The fighter, dwarf and cleric used a d8.
Upping the damage die is not really a good solution. Instead consider the older cleave rule from AD&D where when fighting low level foes a fighter at the very least could kill as many in one swing as they had attacks. Think it was anything with less than a d8 HD? Kobolds, goblins, some humans.
Quote from: Omega;1085469Instead consider the older cleave rule from AD&D where when fighting low level foes a fighter at the very least could kill as many in one swing as they had attacks. Think it was anything with less than a d8 HD? Kobolds, goblins, some humans.
As I recall, the rule was that Fighters got a number of attacks equal to their level (e.g., 5 attacks at 5th level) when fighting foes of 1 HD or less. This rule was why hobgoblins were something of a big deal among the standard low-level enemy roster - they had 1+1 HD, so Fighters had to kill them one at a time instead of taking them out en masse with one-attack-per-level.
Quote from: BronzeDragon;1085466My country's current president suffered an assassination attempt while on campaign.
Single kitchen knife strike to the abdomen. He was immediately incapacitated and would've died if not for prompt medical attention. His intestines were perforated in three places and he was at risk for septicemia.
Clearly a Surprise attack by a mid-level Rogue (Assassin). :D
Seriously, standard weapon damage like d4+2 for a DEX 14 attacker with dagger assumes the target is active & defending himself. So defense wounds are more likely than insta-kill.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1085383That's quite an anecdote to drop into an RPG discussion...
I'm sorry if it was too gruesome for the subject at hand. Unfortunately, it's not the only such anecdote I have. I work on the fixing people side of things, not the shooting or stabbing. I just wanted to chime in because my experience with human injuries of various kinds allows me to just write off RPG damage as a game device, it's simply not possible to model reality at all here.
Quote from: nDervish;1085503As I recall, the rule was that Fighters got a number of attacks equal to their level (e.g., 5 attacks at 5th level) when fighting foes of 1 HD or less. This rule was why hobgoblins were something of a big deal among the standard low-level enemy roster - they had 1+1 HD, so Fighters had to kill them one at a time instead of taking them out en masse with one-attack-per-level.
Think you are right. Books are in storage so cant check.
Quote from: Beldar;1085545I'm sorry if it was too gruesome for the subject at hand. Unfortunately, it's not the only such anecdote I have. I work on the fixing people side of things, not the shooting or stabbing. I just wanted to chime in because my experience with human injuries of various kinds allows me to just write off RPG damage as a game device, it's simply not possible to model reality at all here.
Exactly. People keep wanting to make guns insta-kill weapons and reality says very very differently. D&D HP model the vaugarities of combat pretty well. Being both stamina, luck, and a little meat.
Quote from: nDervish;1085503As I recall, the rule was that Fighters got a number of attacks equal to their level (e.g., 5 attacks at 5th level) when fighting foes of 1 HD or less. This rule was why hobgoblins were something of a big deal among the standard low-level enemy roster - they had 1+1 HD, so Fighters had to kill them one at a time instead of taking them out en masse with one-attack-per-level.
Quote from: Omega;1085556Think you are right. Books are in storage so cant check.
It is correct...Hobgoblins were serious bad news because of it.
Quote from: Razor 007;1085232Just to make it easier to Ace a Low Level Opponent, with a Single Blow; at Max Damage.
Leave PC Hit Points, and Monster Stats as they are.
A high damage strike with a Dagger, currently leaves almost any opponent still standing. Kobolds, Goblins, and Untrained NPCs should be totally vulnerable to a high damage strike from a Dagger.
What PC Hit Points are we talking about here? Do thieves get a d6 or a d4? Do fighters get a d10 or a d8? Do clerics get a d8 or a d6?
d20 Conan boosts weapon damage across the board, but then armor is (usually) DR so it balances out.
Quote from: Kael;1085376In fact, I prefer class damage to weapon damage for just this reason. If classes have static hit dice, why not static damage dice too? Monster's defaulting to a d8 seems even more reasonable in this case.
I've done that and it works fine, but with some modifiers (-1 die size to daggers, +1 die size to 2H weapons).
It gives fighters more choice (and more badass with bows) and now your wizard gets to have a sword!
Quote from: Kael;1085376Or, we should just grow a pair and play OD&D where everything is a d6 as the Lord intended. :) (I'm guilty of liking OD&D more than I actually play it, sadly.)
OD&D can be a hard(ish) sell, but SWORDS & WIZARDRY: WHITE BOX is an easy sell.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByYame2Z2IBCeXljc3gzalNoMUE/view
Here's a 10 year retrospective about it.
https://smolderingwizard.com/2019/01/25/ten-years-of-swords-wizardry-white-box/
BTW, S&W:WB was written by Finarvyn who is a member here.
Apparently, these dudes are currently waving the White Box banner.
https://whiteboxgame.blogspot.com/
It's on Amazon with a rocking cover for less than $5.00
https://www.amazon.com/White-Box-Fantastic-Medieval-Adventure/dp/1981331395/ref=tmm_pap_title_1?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1514477953&sr=8-1
Quote from: Beldar;1085545I just wanted to chime in because my experience with human injuries of various kinds allows me to just write off RPG damage as a game device, it's simply not possible to model reality at all here.
Agreed. That's exactly why I made peace with Hit Points a long time ago. They don't make sense under inspection, but they're terrific for gaming.
Humans are squishy, but the myriad variables involved with injury make "realism" a fools errand.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1086257What PC Hit Points are we talking about here? Do thieves get a d6 or a d4? Do fighters get a d10 or a d8? Do clerics get a d8 or a d6?
Give the PC Classes their Hit Dice from D&D 5E, and Pathfinder.