This is one area white room analysis SERIOUSLY falls apart. It reminds me a little of chess.

White room analytics folks would be the sort of chess player obsessed with not losing a piece.

Quote from: Will;808144This is one area white room analysis SERIOUSLY falls apart. It reminds me a little of chess.

White room analytics folks would be the sort of chess player obsessed with not losing a piece.

White room analysis is very very tricky, and should always be taken with a grain of salt.  Yes, I can see the value of it, but only for basic comparisons.  "Should an axe do X damage over a sword" etc.

But there are sooooo many factors in an actual game session (environment, party composition, etc), that you really can't put a whole lot of weight on the results if you're evaluating something as complex as an entire combat encounter.

I see how DPS spreadsheets have a real value for an MMO because you're so constrained by code.  But in a tabletop RPG with people and a limitless environmental interaction?  Use with caution.

Quote from: Omega;807172er, I dont think it works that way...

It can given you can use use your Warlock spell slot with a Cleric spell but it's a costly way to go given you lose whole levels dipping into Warlock like that because they aren't considered full casters or semi-casters when multiclassing. You get their spell slot(s) but nothing else, so if you had a Cleric/Warlock 17/3 you have the slots of a 17th level caster with 1 or 2 free floating Warlock spell slots as a 17th level character.

Quote from: Will;808144This is one area white room analysis SERIOUSLY falls apart. It reminds me a little of chess.

White room analytics folks would be the sort of chess player obsessed with not losing a piece.

Quote from: Will;795329Yep. I haven't been able to be in a TT game for the last few years, hoping to start one after I move in another 6 months.

I do a little RPG stuff online, but it isn't the same.

So I contemplate games I'd like to do, reminisce about past games.

Hmm.

Quote from: soviet;808191Hmm.

:popcorn:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;808192:popcorn:

Perhaps we should avoid going down this path. I don't see anything useful coming out of it.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;808195Perhaps we should avoid going down this path. I don't see anything useful coming out of it.

It's not the start of some big attack, I've got nothing particularly against Will. Just seemed to me like he was on pretty thin ice.

So instead of making an argument, you're going to make suggestive inferences about the character and motives of a poster. That's really conducive to productive internet discussions!


White room analysis is marked by two things: lack of actual play experience, and, more importantly, the Reductionist's sin of deciding anything not easily quantified is irrelevant.

I've been gaming for over 30 years. I have a lot of actual play experience. Yes, I'm in a dry spell NOW, but that's a small fraction of my gaming life.

I also listen and consider other folks' play experiences. If you've paid any attention to my comments about 5e, it's either 'this is what I've read' or 'this is what I've heard,' and I've weighed it accordingly.
For example, I keep hearing that multiple low level enemies can be a credible threat to high level enemies. That's not immediately obvious from a casual read-through, but I'm inclined to believe it because I've heard it a lot and not heard any real counter claims.

The bit that's more important is that white room analysis is sterile. It focuses on easily manipulated numbers and DPS and whatnot. I... totally don't do that, and even reading a few of my posts should make that screamingly clear.


In short, you are a fucking idiot.

Quote from: Will;808208So instead of making an argument, you're going to make suggestive inferences about the character and motives of a poster. That's really conducive to productive internet discussions!
--snip--
In short, you are a fucking idiot.

:hmm:

Quote from: Ronin;808221:hmm:

Heh.

Will, if I can do all that just by quoting you without additional comment, then I don't know what to tell you. Pointing out a potential issue with your argument is not the same thing as attacking your character and motives.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I had a D&D session tonight.

Then I'll keep it short.

Not having gamed in a few years has absolutely nothing to do with white room analysis.

Quote from: Will;808361Then I'll keep it short.

Not having gamed in a few years has absolutely nothing to do with white room analysis.

Actually in 9 cases out of 10, it has everything to do with it.

Quote from: soviet;808331Heh.

Will, if I can do all that just by quoting you without additional comment, then I don't know what to tell you. Pointing out a potential issue with your argument is not the same thing as attacking your character and motives.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I had a D&D session tonight.

I see what you did there.

What is 'white room analysis'?

  I think we have a question of definition here, with a term that some are using as 'precise spreadsheet calculations of strictly delimited factors' and others as 'anything not based on firsthand actual play experience.'

  (And I also think the emphasis on 'firsthand actual play experience' is a combination of practical wisdom--some things aren't clear until you experience them for yourself--and the postmodern 'how dare you question my experiences? Only the personal matters, and the personal is political! I define myself and my own reality; I shall mount to the throne of the Most High, I shall be as God, I Will Not Serve!' )

Quote from: Will;808361Then I'll keep it short.

Not having gamed in a few years has absolutely nothing to do with white room analysis.

Dry spells aside it has everything to do with discussion of a game that you have never played.

I have been gaming for almost 35 years but have never really played Runequest. Any contributions I could make to a discussion of that game would be devoid of any actual play experience.

Having been away from the table for a few years puts you in the same boat with regard to 5E. You haven't played it, so comments about how it plays are uninformed.

Past experience is useful when dealing with general issues like playstyles, behavior, and such but there is no substitute for actual play. Claiming that general gaming experience matters in discussions about actual play of 5E would be like me claiming that all my past GURPS experience is relevant to a Runequest actual play discussion.

Apples & Oranges.