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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Itachi on September 09, 2017, 09:51:13 AM

Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Itachi on September 09, 2017, 09:51:13 AM
I find the label the most coherent of the bunch to indicate innate capabilities like intelligence, bodily strength, etc. I know Gurps and Shadowrun use it, but don't know if they were the first.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Baulderstone on September 09, 2017, 10:03:37 AM
Interesting question. Looking at my older RPGs, D&D has abilities while Traveller and RuneQuest have characteristics.

Despite starting with Moldvay Basic, I do have a tendency to use attributes regardless of the game I am playing. I did run a lot GURPS in the '80s, so that might be where I picked it up. Of course, that was a descendent of The Fantasy Trip, which use the same term. That came out in 1977. Can anyone find it in an earlier game?
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Skarg on September 09, 2017, 11:00:21 AM
The Fantasy Trip (1977) calls them Attributes (and uses them as the main measure of character ability and progression, with no levels). I started with TFT and didn't realize D&D called its attributes something else.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: GameDaddy on September 09, 2017, 11:59:55 AM
Gamma World (1978) , and the Morrow Project (1980) both use Attributes. Looks like TFT was first though. EPT, and Runequest uses characteristics, Warlock! and Metamorphosis Alpha,  uses abilities just like D&D.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: soltakss on September 09, 2017, 12:49:18 PM
RuneQuest uses Attributes to describe those things derived from Characteristics.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: christopherkubasik on September 09, 2017, 01:36:19 PM
Quote from: soltakss;990909RuneQuest uses Attributes to describe those things derived from Characteristics.
And now things get complicated.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: brettmb on September 09, 2017, 01:39:00 PM
Tunnels and Trolls?
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Baulderstone on September 09, 2017, 02:32:27 PM
I looked that up. It calls them Prime Attributes.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: hedgehobbit on September 09, 2017, 07:47:11 PM
Been checking out all my old games. Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign uses the term Characteristics in a general sense as does Grasstek's Game of Dungeon ('74), although that game doesn't really have ability scores. The oldest character sheets we have, from Blackmoor, list ability scores as "Personality" which is probably a result of where they originally were derived. Note that Arneson's list of ability scores also included skills, such as Woodmanship. Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy also uses Characteristics.

Empire of the Petal Throne uses the strange term "Basic Talents" in both the '74 and '76 version.

Looks to me like "Ability Scores" is a Gygax invention and that "Characteristics" is a more common and more general purpose term (the characteristics of a magical sword forex).

Personally, I favor the term Characteristics as I mainly played Runequest and Champions back in the day. I had to retrain myself to say "ability scores" when talking to OSR types.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Omega on September 09, 2017, 09:07:34 PM
Some games use ability to refer to one thing and attribute to refer to something else, or swap in stats, characteristics, etc.

Monsters Monsters! and probably its predecessor 1st ed T&T both use the term attribute circa 1976 and 75 respectively.

Melee and Wizard are both board games first, but they do use the term attribute AND ability for the same thing. Circa 77.

Personally I like the term Stat. Im used to calling them ability scores from BX and Star Frontiers, and attribute scores from Gamma World.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: TrippyHippy on September 09, 2017, 09:39:45 PM
Vampire: The Masquerade had 'Attributes' and 'Abilities'. Not sure what was first though.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Dirk Remmecke on September 10, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: soltakss;990909RuneQuest uses Attributes to describe those things derived from Characteristics.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;990919And now things get complicated.

And then BESM came and called their feat-equivalent "attributes", while the three basic attributes/abilities were "stats"...
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Willie the Duck on September 11, 2017, 10:21:07 AM
I'm pretty sure none of the early proto-RPGs like Chainmail, En Garde, or Kriegsspiel had anything that we'd recognize as attributes, so we're looking at a timeframe between D&D and TFT ('74 to '77). Anyone have an original Bunnies and Burrows to check?
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2017, 11:36:51 AM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;991448I'm pretty sure none of the early proto-RPGs like Chainmail, En Garde, or Kriegsspiel had anything that we'd recognize as attributes, so we're looking at a timeframe between D&D and TFT ('74 to '77). Anyone have an original Bunnies and Burrows to check?

B&B calls them "characteristics". (EDITED TO ADD: Technically, "primary characteristics".)

I think in terms of meaning "attributes" and "characteristics" both have a closer connotation for things like strength, intelligence, etc. I think "abilities" implies more broadly things that you can do - which is different than mostly-innate qualities like intelligence or charisma.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Trond on September 11, 2017, 12:20:32 PM
I always thought it was Runequest, although they use the term slightly differently.
I normally call them "stats" but can't remember where I picked that up from.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Willie the Duck on September 11, 2017, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: jhkim;991492I think in terms of meaning "attributes" and "characteristics" both have a closer connotation for things like strength, intelligence, etc. I think "abilities" implies more broadly things that you can do - which is different than mostly-innate qualities like intelligence or charisma.


That sounds convincing, but I wonder what my 'unprimed-by-biases-instilled-by-years-of-gaming' instincts would be. Given that I could not, off the top of my head, tell you which system uses which term, I'd say I don't particularly believe for myself that there is much difference. We all know what these things mean to us. They're the characters 'numbers,' and fall somewhere between the main number (level, or ~point value for point-buy games) that tells approximate power level and the more extensive but individually less powerful numbers like skills values or saves.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Baulderstone on September 12, 2017, 06:54:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim;991492B&B calls them "characteristics". (EDITED TO ADD: Technically, "primary characteristics".)

I think in terms of meaning "attributes" and "characteristics" both have a closer connotation for things like strength, intelligence, etc. I think "abilities" implies more broadly things that you can do - which is different than mostly-innate qualities like intelligence or charisma.

Of course, my intro to roleplaying, and my first exposure to an Ability Score was Moldvay Basic D&D. It has a rule that you can resolve just about anything by rolling a d20 and getting equal or under your related Ability Score. In that game, Strength, Intelligence, etc. are for things you can do.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: RPGPundit on September 16, 2017, 01:45:33 AM
Was Tunnels & Trolls prior to TFT? If so, I guess T&T is the answer.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: brettmb on September 16, 2017, 02:18:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;992805Was Tunnels & Trolls prior to TFT? If so, I guess T&T is the answer.
Didn't I ask that? ;)
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on September 16, 2017, 04:46:29 AM
Characteristics are the values for attributes, if you read old-skool syfy rules. Strong, weak, smart, dumb, etc. when reading their numbers you rolled for them.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Skarg on September 16, 2017, 12:38:52 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;992805Was Tunnels & Trolls prior to TFT? If so, I guess T&T is the answer.
Quote from: brettmb;992815Didn't I ask that? ;)
Yes:
Quote from: brettmb;990921Tunnels and Trolls?

And yes, T&T seems to be 1975, TFT 1977.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Omega on September 16, 2017, 07:56:04 PM
My copy says 75. So T&T and MM! beat out TFT.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Dumarest on September 17, 2017, 12:16:11 AM
Just out of curiosity, Itachi, why did you ask about this? I'm just wondering what difference it makes, or if you were just curious?
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Omega on September 17, 2017, 08:29:46 PM
At a guess its just curiosity who used it first.

Problem is some games use several different terms for the same thing because they arent locking down to just one. See my notes above where some were using two or even three.
Title: What game coined "Atributes" ?
Post by: Itachi on September 18, 2017, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: Dumarest;993110Just out of curiosity, Itachi, why did you ask about this? I'm just wondering what difference it makes, or if you were just curious?
Just curious, as I find it the label that most pleases me.

So it's Tunnels and Trolls then. Thanks folks!