Quote from: Skarg;1036302In other words, while you can have that background in either game, in D&D the rules themselves mostly don't provide many detailed effects that are unique to your character (but the DM and/or player might think up effects of them), while in GURPS the rules specify effects that are very specific and detailed and might not be something any other character in the campaign has.

Different people (at different times and for different situations) may prefer one or the other.

By George, I think he's got it!

Quote from: Skarg;1036302In other words, while you can have that background in either game, in D&D the rules themselves mostly don't provide many detailed effects that are unique to your character (but the DM and/or player might think up effects of them), while in GURPS the rules specify effects that are very specific and detailed and might not be something any other character in the campaign has.

Different people (at different times and for different situations) may prefer one or the other.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1036307By George, I think he's got it!

Which brings up an interesting point.

When people didn't like how D&D did it, and they weren't TSR or WotC, they made different games, like RuneQuest, Tunnels & Trolls, DragonQuest, Chivalry & Sorcery, etc. most of which fit that customization need better than OD&D.

TSR at least made different games like Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Boot Hill, etc, but in the fantasy space, they are kind of stuck with D&D unless they want to create a directly competing product.  So to serve that need, they must change D&D.

The various editions of D&D are really that, "meeting the needs of" or "chasing a" certain playerbase, however you want to view it, without flushing too many of the previous playerbases.

Well, yeah.  After everybody who wants a game has it, you change the game or dump it.

I think there are times when a new edition is warranted and acceptable and times when it's offensive and unforgivable.  I think my favorite upgrade is GURPS first edition to second edition.  The cardboard covers made the books more durable and getting the errata corrected is always nice.  100% compatible and I like the blue printing on the covers.

Fourth edition D&D is a good example of unforgivable.  Taking a game you dislike that other people love and changing it into something you like is pretty bad but telling them they were stupid for buying the previous edition is worse.  And then there's needing to buy a supplement to do things you could do in OD&D's three little booklets like a two fisted fighter (which you needed a supplement for)  indeed, deliberately spreading parts of the core to extra books to extend your sales.  Bullshit man, pure bullshit.  Incidentally, GURPS is guilty of this in fourth edition.  There's about 16 pages of worthless drek (Infinite Worlds Setting and sample characters you'll never use) which could have been more monsters, vehicles, or the three or four core advantages that you have to buy powers to get.

Traveller the New Era (much as I love it) is also guilty.  Ditching the Traveller system for a variant of the Twilight 2000 rules and changing how massive parts of the universe works, is just bad form.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1036387Well, yeah.  After everybody who wants a game has it, you change the game or dump it.

If no one was born or died, that would be true, but there's always going to be new blood, even if they only jump in because they are being taught by the old blood.

I always thought it a little strange that to find ideas for new editions, D&D keeps looking to games that aren't D&D and have a microscopic fraction of their sales.

I haven't found a RPG where I couldn't create a customized character. That includes Creeks & Crawdads (which is a blast to play).

In general, I find the games with mechanical wankery to add little when creating a character.

Quote from: Cave Bear;1036118I recently got a chance to playtest my game, Homunculi, at a convention.

Start a thread and talk about your game!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1036406Start a thread and talk about your game!

I'm going to wait until after the next blind playtest. I have a friend in Germany playtesting it with his group. He's been giving me really solid feedback.

Quote from: David Johansen;1036402Fourth edition D&D is a good example of unforgivable.  Taking a game you dislike that other people love and changing it into something you like is pretty bad but telling them they were stupid for buying the previous edition is worse.

To be fair, the changes they announced they were making were actually pretty widely applauded at the time. Things like Casters & Caddies, Rocket Tag and Save or Suck were real issues in 3.X (the origin for most of which was abandoning certain elements of the previous editions... particularly non-standardized XP tables and the saving throw system) they were trying to address with 4E. Structurally the core mechanics (ability scores, action checks, hit points, Armor Class, etc.) were not THAT different from 3e's mechanics (most of the changes were streamlining like cutting the list of opportunity attack triggers from a full page of possibilities to just two things or changing flat-footed/combat advantage from 'denied DEX' to a flat -2).

The primary complaints when 4E finally came out really boiled down to feel. Specifically, the system was overtly written as a game (ex. replacing real distances with squares) using technical instead of natural language and that in their effort to create better balance between casters and non-casters they made them all feel the same and that not all of the classic races/classes were available from launch.

The second huge error on their part was in dropping the OGL for the more restrictive GSL and moving Dungeon & Dragon in-house. Fun fact, Pathfinder only existed because WotC took away Paizo's primary revenue stream (i.e. the Dungeon & Dragon magazines). Golarion was originally going to be Paizo's default 4E setting for releasing supplements and in Dragon & Dungeon magazines under the OGL. By screwing over Paizo in the name of some corporate greed, they ended up creating their chief competitor that offered to continue to support the old system for those who didn't want to update.

I remember discussing the whole thing with the guys at Paradigm Concepts (the people behind Arcanis... one of the bigger 3E-era Living Campaigns) and why they were moving to a bespoke game engine specifically because they didn't want to force their players to stay on the edition treadmill and they were certain that 3E would go the way of every other past edition so continuing to produce 3E-based supplements was a losing proposition because it would be harder and harder to get the core books needed to play.

The success of Pathfinder in letting 3e fans NOT update and thus completely split the market absolutely blindsided a LOT of people both in WotC and without and at the end of the day it was mostly the feel of the new edition and having screwed over Paizo with the GSL that doomed 4E far more than its actual mechanics ever did.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1036387Well, yeah.  After everybody who wants a game has it, you change the game or dump it.

Then how do you explain Chaosium;)?

Quote from: AsenRG;1036443Then how do you explain Chaosium;)?

Probably everyone who was going to buy RQ/BRP has bought a copy. They dumped Magic World. Sounds like a good fit to me.

Of the games still in print, Pathfinder has the most options. Probably too much. But yeah, if you want to make the most off-the-wall concept you can possibly think of in a fantasy game, PF can probably do that for you.

And if you are really daring, there's a multitude of d20/3rd edition stuff to mash it up with too.

Quote from: Robyo;1036451Of the games still in print, Pathfinder has the most options. Probably too much. But yeah, if you want to make the most off-the-wall concept you can possibly think of in a fantasy game, PF can probably do that for you.

And if you are really daring, there's a multitude of d20/3rd edition stuff to mash it up with too.

Well... That's not entirely true... SIFRP (The Chronicle System) has way more character customization potential than any D20 RPG, and then there's Victoriana.

D20 RPGs, while having a wide range of support, don't really promote character building or customization, especially at low levels. The Character design system for new characters is built around making as few choices as possible.

Agone, in my experience, has some of the most customization options (excluding, perhaps, race variety compared to D20 games, but there are 13, so it's not exactly lacking). Admittedly, this game is technically out of print, but the English version is still very available (and for super cheap). True, compared to GURPS or the HERO system, it doesn't really hold a candle, but these systems are designed to be setting neutral, and as far as RPGs built with a fantasy setting in mind, Agone has near Shadowrun levels of character customization, but remains infinitely less complicated.

The OP had listed fantasy games. Definitely GURPS and HERO are quite customizable, but I would classify them as generic, or univeral types systems. HERO based off of Champions, which is great for superhero genre. Certainly those games can do fantasy too, but more as a subset. Pathfinder is strictly fantasy, with other genre overtones.

Agone I have not played yet, nor read, but it does look cool. I know the art is great.

Quote from: Robyo;1036506Agone I have not played yet, nor read, but it does look cool. I know the art is great.

The main draw for Agone is the fantasy world in which it's set. The mechanics are fine, I like them, but I wouldn't say their innovative. The main thing about it is the setting and character design possibilities vastly overshadow the actual game part of the game.

There are also some fun paradoxes of the system, like building an extremely effective pixie martial character (and to qualify, an effective martial character in this system means killing most common enemies in one hit).

Quote from: AsenRG;1036443Then how do you explain Chaosium;)?

Lovecraft kicks so much ass that Chaosium can self destruct at least once per decade and still exist.