What fantasy rpg's would you say have the best tools for creating the character that you want?  What system do you feel models your ideas best?

Quote from: RunningLaser;1035066What fantasy rpg's would you say have the best tools for creating the character that you want?  What system do you feel models your ideas best?

Do you want tradeoffs among competing options, or "master-of-all-chosen-trades"?

Savage Worlds. I think it allows you to really adapt your character in-play to the circumstances of your campaign organically without really losing cohesion mechanically. Easy to play, moderate crunch (deceptively deep).

Talislanta - Likewise you have a lot of control. Depends on which edition you use, in terms of granularity at the start. I'd go 4e. The settings is not like most fantasy settings (in a good way) but it has enough common ground for everyone to get into it.

If you're talking about "D&D" - my go to would be Fantasycraft. Probably more control over your character in terms of mechanical expression than any other D&D edition or D&D variant that I know of. It's setting neutral and meant to be used as a mechanical framework for you own settings, or established ones. Highly under-rated in my opinion. Not for noobs unless you're *really* into getting into mechanics and fine-tuning before play.

GURPS and HERO I think would be the obvious choices. But, I think the traditional D&D systems do a good enough job with that as well. To me, my character is more about the character traits than any in game ability or l33t p0w3rz.

You should check out What's OLD is NEW (WOIN). The acronyms don't actually mean anything. It's just a name (in case that rubs you the wrong way...). :-D

Quick View

What's OLD is NEW (WOIN) is a set of compatible games using a d6 pool, add them up and get over a Target Number (TN) mechanism. OLD is for fantasy, NEW is for science fiction, and NOW is for modern games. They use the same system with particulars focused on each genre.

It is medium crunch. You can easily spend more time  creating cool things (like starships! Or magic spells!) than calculating modifiers. Character creation presents plenty of options without overbearing the players. You pick "careers" that give you attribute bonuses, skill options, and Exploits (similar to d20 feats). Combat is tactical with plenty of options for creative players (like stunt areas!). The default assumption is to use a square grid and minis. Position is important! You can get pinned down and combat encourages tactics and movement.

I've been looking for a current OGL system I can publish with. I am using it as a "replacement" for True20 and I feel it fills that niche perfectly. It bears some semblance to WEG's D6 system but only at first glance. It is its own thing. It is released under the Open Gaming License and has a creator's program on Drivethru RPG.

Links

Website

DTRPG

WOIN Publishing Syndicate (DTRPG Community Creator Program)

Forums

EONS Magazine (Patreon)

Gear! (super cool website)

Just to let you know, "WOIN" means "warrior" in more than one language, including Bulgarian, Serbian and Russian:). I suspect that it's not a coincidence.

More on the topic of the thread later tonight;).

Quote from: Ulairi;1035075GURPS and HERO I think would be the obvious choices. But, I think the traditional D&D systems do a good enough job with that as well. To me, my character is more about the character traits than any in game ability or l33t p0w3rz.

To me, that depends on what one means by "good enough". I'm fine playing D&D, so in that sense it is good enough. But it is limiting in character options, and if the question is specifically about customization rather than being a good game overall, then D&D doesn't allow much.

With GURPS and HERO (also Fudge and to some degree FATE), I can tend to picture what kind of character I'd like to have, and then implement that. In D&D and other class based systems, I am picking off a menu of options that is far more limited.

Rolemaster Standard System has very flexible character creation while maintaining some niche protection by setting the cost of skills by profession rather than using a flat cost.  Just about everything is a skill, including combat maneuvers hit points and spell points.  There are also talents and flaws though most of these impact skills in one way or another.  One thing about RMSS is that the relationship between skills is represented in a number of ways.  Professions relate skills by association in practice.  Skill Categories associate skills by their common knowledge base.  Attributes and talents associate skills by capability.  RMSS uses three stats per skill which cuts down on dump stating and makes it possible to be a good fighter in different ways.

My own Arcane Confabulation borrows some of those ideas, but ditches professions, allowing really flexible character creation.  Careers are just a list of skill and characteristic purchases that can be applied each level.

I love GURPS and like HERO but if that's too much flexability, The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game cuts GURPS down to just Fantasy.

OD&D.  It lets you imagine your character to be almost anything within a few broad archetypes, and the rules don't interfere.

GURPS - It lets me do exactly what I want, and easily add house rules (or import content from the real world or other games) because things make sense so there's a logical framework and scale to things. It also has far more content and support for things than I usually even want.

More importantly, it plays the way I think about things, since very little is abstract. The gameplay is about the details of the situation, more than about which characters have higher ratings or abstract hit points.

Quote from: jhkim;1035085To me, that depends on what one means by "good enough". I'm fine playing D&D, so in that sense it is good enough. But it is limiting in character options, and if the question is specifically about customization rather than being a good game overall, then D&D doesn't allow much.

With GURPS and HERO (also Fudge and to some degree FATE), I can tend to picture what kind of character I'd like to have, and then implement that. In D&D and other class based systems, I am picking off a menu of options that is far more limited.

I've played a lot of GURPS and in my experience, usually with games like GURPS, HERO, Fudge, the characters end up in one of the archtypes most class based systems offer. Want to be bowman? D&D has you covered.

But, I freely admit, I've never been one for character optimization to begin with. I've tended to focus on my characters traits and less on his abilities. I do recognize that for a lot of folks building and tricking out their characters is a lot of fun (especially for gamers that got started with 3.x era gaming).

Character customization and optimization aren't the same thing though they are related as customization usually means you can optimize and there will always be those who do.

There is something to be said for broad archetypes and free form play but they both lean heavily on player originality and understanding of the setting both of which are often lacking.

Quote from: Ulairi;1035094I've played a lot of GURPS and in my experience, usually with games like GURPS, HERO, Fudge, the characters end up in one of the archtypes most class based systems offer. Want to be bowman? D&D has you covered.

But, I freely admit, I've never been one for character optimization to begin with. I've tended to focus on my characters traits and less on his abilities. I do recognize that for a lot of folks building and tricking out their characters is a lot of fun (especially for gamers that got started with 3.x era gaming).

The question is about customization, not optimization. For example, if I'm in a non-D&D fantasy game, I might imagine:

1) A character who is a classic wise woman - who has healing arts, curses, prophecy, and mind magic as well as various potions and herbs. She isn't particularly skilled at combat, but could probably use a bow or staff.

2) A specialist soldier who is thoroughly skilled with a bow including a number of fighting tricks and techniques - but who isn't very skilled at fighting with plate mail, sword, and shield.

3) A rich and foppish arms merchant who has some skill with the weapons he sells, but mainly is a minor magician who enhances and disguises the weapons and armor.

None of these are necessarily optimized at all, but they're all pretty tough to do in D&D - particularly as a starting character.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1035066What fantasy rpg's would you say have the best tools for creating the character that you want?  What system do you feel models your ideas best?

well, the system is obviously geared heavily towards the world the game was built for, but Agone has a huge amount of customization options for fantasy characters. you can do anything from a powerful artificer that can make any magic item you can dream of, to a literal magic sword that possesses its wielders and uses them as puppets.

It has 7 significantly distinct magic systems, with 26 different variations (that I can count off the top of my head), and that's not counting the advantages that are specific to each style, or overlap between styles, that allows for even more specialization and distinction of magical abilities.

And martial prowess isn't a forgotten character design choice either, as there are numerous combat maneuvers, as well as specialized maneuvers that allow for feats of superhuman ability. And in the expanded material there are Fencing schools which group these abilities together under specific in game fighting styles and grant extra points for improving martial based characters as well as discounts for options that align with the school. And there are a plethora of bizarre fantasy weapons, ranging from the moderately believable War Torch, to the completely absurd Sacred book, a holly book covered in thick leaver so it can function as a shield, and chained shut with long iron chains and locks, that let it also function as a flail.

Also, the inclusion of 12 distinct nonhuman races, each with their own 30 page books that provide information on their culture, as well as varying advantages based on their specificity, allow for a huge amount of customization for a character.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1035066What fantasy rpg's would you say have the best tools for creating the character that you want?  What system do you feel models your ideas best?

The one I'm writing currently. One of the testers has suggested that when its closer to release I hold contest to see which sapient creatures from the D&D Monster Manual you can't run as a PC.

It works as a series of nested options; you start with something generic, then make more specific choices inside each choice to narrow it down the character you want. The three starting choices are Species, Background and Archetype.

While some of the species are quite specific, several are exceeding broad. For example, the Avatar species lets you make an "elemental"-themed character (in scare quotes because in this case it also includes ice, beast and plant options) whose form is your choice of humanoid, sprite, giant or beast. Some of the pre-built examples include brownies/sylphs/undines/dryads, werecreatures, frost pixies, giants (treants are plant giants), dragons and unicorns. Beastman are just as broad with a build the species yourself menu and pre-built examples of centaurs, gnolls, goblins, crocodin (lizardmen), kobolds, minotaurs, raven-kin and wolfen. The last highly variable species are the mutants whose pre-built true-breeding examples include cyclops, orcs, ogres, half-orcs, spikers (bladelings), troglodytes and trolls.

While not quite as variable, every other species has options; Dwarves have artifice (arcane cybernetics), Elves have a choice of aspect (Seelie/Unseelie), caste (high/common/low) and astral spark (various divine powers, including being a Changeling or winged Archon), Gnomes get an astral spark (not changeling or archon) and are probably the most specific species, Golems have a choice of 'original purpose' and options for 'aftermarket upgrades', Humans can be pureblooded, half-avatar, half-dwarf, half-elf, or half-shade, and Malfeans (tiefling-esque) elemental echoes (brine, dust, ember, husk, miasma or rime) and the option to take on additional demonic traits.

Your background determines your skills and non-combat benefits; It has twelve broad backgrounds (Arcanist, Artisan, Barbarian, Commoner, Courtier, Entertainer, Military, Monastic, Noble, Outlaw, Religious and Traveler) and then each has a selection of skills and a menu of additional options that you pick a couple of to further define your character in that regard.

Your Archetype determines how you fight; Skilled (weapons and training) or Spellcasting that each have additional options;

- Skilled has your choice of combat style (strong, swift or berserker) and combat focus (daring, tactical or wary) and then a choice of class (Acrobat, Beastmaster, Brigand, Captain, Defender, Ravager, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Sidekick and Skirmisher), combat stances (actions that modify your weapon attacks) and specializations (extra tricks you can pull off with certain weapons or armor).

- Spellcasting has your choice of spellcasting path; Arcane (gadeteering, runes, sorcery or wizardry), Astral (faithful or militant) or Primal (cunning, insightful, potent or swift patron) and then a choice of class (Abjurer, Benedictor, Empowered, Interdictor, Maledictor, Shifter, Summoner and Warden), attack spells (what it says on the tin) and spellcasting specializations (different schools of magic like abjuration, aeromancy, cryomancy, divination, illusion, pyromancy, restoration, terramancy and transformation).

* * * *

The GM-side of the project is still in the writing stages, (the monster list is only about 40% done and traps/hazards/disease need fleshing out beyond the degree to which dealing with them is covered in the Player's Guide), but if this isn't a "I'm just curious about the subject" but a "I'm looking for a game system to play" and are willing to give some feedback, PM me and I'll see about getting you hooked up with the playtest material.

Quote from: jhkim;1035156The question is about customization, not optimization. For example, if I'm in a non-D&D fantasy game, I might imagine:

1) A character who is a classic wise woman - who has healing arts, curses, prophecy, and mind magic as well as various potions and herbs. She isn't particularly skilled at combat, but could probably use a bow or staff.
Human Barbarian or Artisan Benedictor (any of the spellcasting paths depending on how you see her magic working). My hunch would be a barbarian (not a rage monster, that's the berserker option) follower of the primal spirits (probably an insightful patron spirit), but if she's more of an in-town wise woman she might be an Artisan and use the wizardy path of arcane spellcasting.

2) A specialist soldier who is thoroughly skilled with a bow including a number of fighting tricks and techniques - but who isn't very skilled at fighting with plate mail, sword, and shield.
Human Military Swift Sentinel or Sharpshooter (though if the focus was more on dirty tricks or coordinating with his allies a brigand or captain could work... so could a ravager or skirmisher if your main goal was to burn the enemy down with a giant heavy bow or rapid fire from a lighter one). He could be Daring, Tactical or Wary depending on focus.

3) A rich and foppish arms merchant who has some skill with the weapons he sells, but mainly is a minor magician who enhances and disguises the weapons and armor.
Human Arcanist Sidekick. He focuses on illusions, item enchantment rituals and other utility magics. In combat he's okay with a weapon, but his primary combat tactic when he can is creating openings for his more skilled allies to exploit.

None of these are necessarily optimized at all, but they're all pretty tough to do in D&D - particularly as a starting character.

I quoted you mainly to provide examples of how a character might be customized in the system I'm developing. All of those would be pretty easy to make as starting characters, but I agree they'd be a lot harder in D&D.