Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character", does that count? Probably a legacy of the era of RPGs I joined in, or something, but I love crunchy systems, with lots of stuff to tweak and play with and interact with. I mean, I like other types of games too, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the recent trend of all games moving in the direction of simplification. Darnit, I like Shadowrun in part because if I want my gun to have it's own freaking character sheet, I can do that. Not in spite of that level of complexity, because of it.

I think this is coming mainly from video games and boardgames edging out complicated or super well defined RPGs.

The main draw of RPGs is that they can handle what the rules don't cover, so the need for the rules to cover things has dropped.

I still appreciate games that still make an effort to have rules for things even as they try to lower the overall crunch like Savage Worlds.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character", does that count? Probably a legacy of the era of RPGs I joined in, or something, but I love crunchy systems, with lots of stuff to tweak and play with and interact with. I mean, I like other types of games too, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the recent trend of all games moving in the direction of simplification. Darnit, I like Shadowrun in part because if I want my gun to have it's own freaking character sheet, I can do that. Not in spite of that level of complexity, because of it.

As an avid GURPS fan I feel very much the same about the overall modern RPG trend, not that I take any particular issue with milder-crunch RPGs. At least without mentioning the recent dearth of all those hastily slapped together, one-page micro "RPGs" vomited out by the minute, that is.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character", does that count? Probably a legacy of the era of RPGs I joined in, or something, but I love crunchy systems, with lots of stuff to tweak and play with and interact with. I mean, I like other types of games too, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the recent trend of all games moving in the direction of simplification. Darnit, I like Shadowrun in part because if I want my gun to have it's own freaking character sheet, I can do that. Not in spite of that level of complexity, because of it.

I would agree with that.  Nothing worse then having a weapon do a set 1d6 damage no matter what it is.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character", does that count?

Did they really say that? Cause that would be kind of cool. The most difficult math I've seen were...

• Using the Pythagorean method to find the exact distance between points in a 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional space. (Traveller, SpaceQuest, and one iteration of D&D aerial combat)
• Using logarithms. But, the rules explained the operation and provided a lookup table so you didn't really need to understand log arithmetic. (AP System in DC Heroes)
• I haven't played it, but I imagine Phoenix command uses some math for trajectory and range.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character", does that count?

Did they really say that? Cause that would be kind of cool. The most difficult math I've seen were...

• Using the Pythagorean method to find the exact distance between points in a 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional space is as difficult as the mathematical operations have gotten in any RPG I've seen. (Traveller, SpaceQuest, and one iteration of D&D aerial combat)
• Using logarithms, but the rules explained the operation and provided a lookup table so you didn't really need to uses them. (AP System in DC Heroes)
• I haven't played it, but I imagine Phoenix command uses some math for trajectory and range.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character"

I seem to recall that the starship design rules in the classic Traveller supplement High Guard required solving second order differential equations, but I could be misremembering...

Quote from: Dimitrios;1113678I seem to recall that the starship design rules in the classic Traveller supplement High Guard required solving second order differential equations, but I could be misremembering...

Could be.

You might have needed to calculate the volume of a solid.

Quote from: Bren;1113675Did they really say that? Cause that would be kind of cool. The most difficult math I've seen were...

• Using the Pythagorean method to find the exact distance between points in a 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional space. (Traveller, SpaceQuest, and one iteration of D&D aerial combat)
• Using logarithms. But, the rules explained the operation and provided a lookup table so you didn't really need to understand log arithmetic. (AP System in DC Heroes)
• I haven't played it, but I imagine Phoenix command uses some math for trajectory and range.

How about a table computed from the functions below (yep for real calculus!) for the Cold Iron game I played in college (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nyOzdxP8VZV2oSyKnxnS160WBRpC1Cd9fNfn2Va9VAI/edit?usp=sharing):


and



where micron () is 0 and sigma () is 20/3. The variable x will be a modifier (chance adjustment) that is added to your attack rating and compared to your opponent's defense rating.

That formula is the cumulative distribution function of the normal distribution (the "true" bell curve). It allows something like exploding dice for combat resolution but following the smooth shape of the normal distribution rather than the step functions you get when you do something like if you roll max, roll again and add.

Fortunately my friend who came up with the system did the math and shared a printed table.

These days, the power of Excel reduces that nasty formula to =NORMDIST(x,0,20/3,TRUE)

In play, magic users would need to break out their calculator to calculate logarithms and exponential functions to compute their current mana points or determine how long it would take to recover them. Even poor fighters needed logarithms to computer grappling ratings if multiple opponents were on a side (fortunately that function was also pre-computed and presented in a table on the reference sheet).

But despite that nasty math, there are certainly more complex systems that use less fancy math.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113658"Assuming nobody wants to do calculus to roll up a character", does that count? Probably a legacy of the era of RPGs I joined in, or something, but I love crunchy systems, with lots of stuff to tweak and play with and interact with. I mean, I like other types of games too, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the recent trend of all games moving in the direction of simplification. Darnit, I like Shadowrun in part because if I want my gun to have it's own freaking character sheet, I can do that. Not in spite of that level of complexity, because of it.

This has pervaded board gaming as well slowly to the point now several designers and players are very against math in games at all. Apparetly 1+2+3 is just too complex for "modern" gamers. You have to dumb it down to the point a preschooler is mocking you.

Quote from: ffilz;1113684How about a table computed from the functions below (yep for real calculus!) for the Cold Iron game I played in college (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nyOzdxP8VZV2oSyKnxnS160WBRpC1Cd9fNfn2Va9VAI/edit?usp=sharing):


and



where micron () is 0 and sigma () is 20/3. The variable x will be a modifier (chance adjustment) that is added to your attack rating and compared to your opponent's defense rating.

That formula is the cumulative distribution function of the normal distribution (the "true" bell curve). It allows something like exploding dice for combat resolution but following the smooth shape of the normal distribution rather than the step functions you get when you do something like if you roll max, roll again and add.

Fortunately my friend who came up with the system did the math and shared a printed table.

These days, the power of Excel reduces that nasty formula to =NORMDIST(x,0,20/3,TRUE)

In play, magic users would need to break out their calculator to calculate logarithms and exponential functions to compute their current mana points or determine how long it would take to recover them. Even poor fighters needed logarithms to computer grappling ratings if multiple opponents were on a side (fortunately that function was also pre-computed and presented in a table on the reference sheet).

But despite that nasty math, there are certainly more complex systems that use less fancy math.

Haha wow. That's the point where complexity just morphs into stupidity.

Quote from: Shasarak;1113672I would agree with that.  Nothing worse then having a weapon do a set 1d6 damage no matter what it is.

That was because intitially a d6 was all they had to work with, jackass.

Other Suns had some calculus during chargen. But that is just about the only RPG or game at all I have seen that required anything more than addition, subtraction, or a little multiplication or division on a regular basis. Pretty sure Universe and Star Frontiers have some extra math to calculate distances in a 3 dimensional space. But past that not sure?

Quote from: Omega;1113687That was because intitially a d6 was all they had to work with, jackass.

You have an excuse if you are playing Yahtzee.

Quote from: Brad;1113686Haha wow. That's the point where complexity just morphs into stupidity.

Actually the game really isn't that complex. And who cares if the designer did some fancy math...

Ok, so yea, you need to use a scientific calculator to determine mana recovery stuff. So what, everyone has access to one these days and the formula is simple. This math COULD also be reduced to a simple table if you really wanted. There's also simple rules of thumb (like how long it takes to double your mana during recovery).

The game isn't for everyone, but all the fancy stuff works and we had many hours of enjoyable gaming with it, and with players willing to dig in for a bit of system mastery, I think the game could work just fine today.

Personally I think the system is elegant for having figured out how to use the normal distribution with simple table look ups (and honestly, enough of the table can be memorized that you don't even have to look up that often). Some open ended dice mechanisms while they do work for a game, do sort of look weird. For example, roll 1d20, if you roll a 20 roll again and add, you can never generate a 20, the sequence goes ...17, 18, 19, 21, ... and the probability "curve" is stepped. 1 to 19 each have a 5% chance of occurring while 21 to 39 each have a 1 in 400 chance of occurring, and 41 to 59 have a 1 in 8000 chance (assuming true open ended). Dice pool mechanics like Burning Wheel (re-roll 6s and count additional successes) are a bit smoother, but still the probability plot would look a bit odd. Cold Iron's probability plot looks like a bell curve (if you look at the probability of each result rather than cumulative probability), similar to 3d6 except the normal distribution is open ended while the 3d6 curve has end points.

Yea, the system came out of an engineering college... And I wouldn't use it all the time because I like other systems. And sometimes I like a simple system, and sometimes I like something actually more complex (D&D 3.x is probably more complex if you use everything).

On the other hand, in some ways it's fun to poke fun at the game as absurd for using all that fancy math... Just like it's fun to poke fun at Aftermath's combat flow chart (I've never played Aftermath, but I know there are folks who love the game, so that crazy looking flowchart does something good for some folks).

Quote from: ffilz;1113684Fortunately my friend who came up with the system did the math and shared a printed table.

"Fortunately" is not the first word that comes to mind for someone coming up with that system. You certainly did provide the requested example, though.

Quote from: ffilz;1113702Some open ended dice mechanisms while they do work for a game, do sort of look weird. For example, roll 1d20, if you roll a 20 roll again and add, you can never generate a 20.

If the problem is the missing number 19, you could roll 2D10 instead of 1D20 and reroll on doubles. Upen ended at the top with no holes in the middle.

QuoteYea, the system came out of an engineering college...

Created by engineers. I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.