Quote from: sureshot;1114007Agreed and very much seconded. If a company is oromoting the new rog as a new edition I expect an actually nrw edition with a minimum of at least 80%+ new material. Anything else is essentially what PF 1E was to D&D 3.5 and Ultimate Rifts to the Rifts Main Book. The same old house with a fresh coat of paint.

I don't mind the old house with a fresh coat of paint if that is what I'm in the mood of buying. If I want to purchase a new house the  I expect to buy that.

Only so many times an rpg company can sell a reprint of old material with bettrr production values and a frw house rules before gamwrs stop buying.  

I have no interest in PF 2E at this time. It would not even be on my radar if it was just another rehash of 3.5. with a few houserules and new art. 5E essentially thought Oaizo thst they had to sell a new house and not rely on the hopes that the fans would want the same house again.

I believe that Redbrick put out at least two "editions" of Earthdawn that were almost entirely reprints of old materials (and mostly old art). I bought into one and skipped the other entirely after that.

Quote from: sureshot;1113989As unlike WEG who refused to really address and flaws of their version of Star Wars...

:confused:

Quote from: HappyDaze;1114012I believe that Redbrick put out at least two "editions" of Earthdawn that were almost entirely reprints of old materials (and mostly old art). I bought into one and skipped the other entirely after that.

Devil's advocate: You've got to reprint books from time to time to replenish stock, and the standards of production in the RPG industry area generally trending up. If you're going to reprint anyways, why not update the production values a bit?

Quote from: Bruwulf;1114040Devil's advocate: You've got to reprint books from time to time to replenish stock, and the standards of production in the RPG industry area generally trending up. If you're going to reprint anyways, why not update the production values a bit?

The two editions I'm talking about were hardly an improvement in quality. Same shit-ass Laubenstein art (I swear that man seems incapable of drawing a straight line) and the same basic paper stock from the 90s. But they sure updated the price to modern standards.

Quote from: Bren;1114029:confused:

Instead of trying to even remotely addtess tje issue of Jedi being too powerful in D6 Star Wars their advice in a nutshell " were not doing anything to fix the issue we Jedi, hete is a bunch of shitty piss poor advice that amounts to screwing over players who use Jedi and force users". The bucket of dice is annoying. At least FFG did something totone down Force users. Don't get me wrong I enjoy Star Wars D6. Like many rpgs it has it's flaws and far from perfect.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1114059The two editions I'm talking about were hardly an improvement in quality. Same shit-ass Laubenstein art (I swear that man seems incapable of drawing a straight line) and the same basic paper stock from the 90s. But they sure updated the price to modern standards.

Pretty much. Beyond new cover art and charging far too much for reprinted matetial.

Quote from: sureshot;1113989I never and still don't quite understand that kind of mindset. It's not as if edition ninjas are going to attack the game session and remove all later edition materials. Lately I'm tempted to look at some older modules for inspiration for an upcoming PF 1E or 2E D*&d (not sure which yet). It just boils to morons in the hobby wanting to draw lines in the sand when the majority of us are just going to walk up and kick the sand into their faces. While asking them to leave our games and never be asked back.

I first encountered this stupidity about 20 years ago when I ran KotB for some kids at a gaming shop, and some schmuck in the adjacent room felt the need to tell me it wasn't an AD&D module. I thought he was joking but he was rather vehement about it. Were it not for the fact that there was several 10-12 year olds at the table, and younger kids and their parents browsing nearby, I would have told him to fuck off. Instead I said "REALLY?" and thumbed through the module pretending to be surprised.

Converting any of the pre-Wizards D&D adventures takes about two minutes, tops. An orc is an orc, whether it's OD&D, Holmes, BECMI, 1E or 2E. Some monsters have different hit dice or damage or whatever, but that's so minor it's usually not even noticeable.  Ditto for classes, races and magic.

Quote from: Elfdart;1114076I first encountered this stupidity about 20 years ago when I ran KotB for some kids at a gaming shop, and some schmuck in the adjacent room felt the need to tell me it wasn't an AD&D module. I thought he was joking but he was rather vehement about it. Were it not for the fact that there was several 10-12 year olds at the table, and younger kids and their parents browsing nearby, I would have told him to fuck off. Instead I said "REALLY?" and thumbed through the module pretending to be surprised.

Converting any of the pre-Wizards D&D adventures takes about two minutes, tops. An orc is an orc, whether it's OD&D, Holmes, BECMI, 1E or 2E. Some monsters have different hit dice or damage or whatever, but that's so minor it's usually not even noticeable.  Ditto for classes, races and magic.

Once again agreed and seconded. Someone came up to me to engage in anti-4E rant and I not so politely him to also fuck off as I was not surrounded by kids and was minding my own business. Usling older modules and other editions of D&D don't hurt anybody and really are no one business.

Given how cheap PDFs many of them being out of print are no longer an issue and no longer require buying from greedy sellers either: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?keywords=keep+on+the+borderlands&filters=45471_0_0_0_0_0_0_0&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

Don't get me started on Goodman Games trying to sell the same material at 20 times the listed PDF value simply because it is converted to later editions. That is why I am so hard on those in our hobby. If it's not their lamenting about the use of technology with younger players. To the same players wanting create and play different characters and playstyles ( the ABSOLUTE horror how dare those whippersnapper think different than ME ). To Ole Pundit complaining about running games for a younger crowd. It's to be blunt embarrassing and even with the hobby becoming mainstream gamers still get looked down upon as Grognard. Which is not a badge of honor, never was and never will be. We sometimes fucking deserve it.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113999Because SDC beings, like humans, are not able to stand up to MDC damage sources without armor, and on the flipside MDC armor renders most SDC damage sources laughable. From there it becomes an arms race.

I mean, in the real world, a crappy knock-off, under-powered, ill-repaired pistol can kill you, but it also might not. Depends where you get hit, luck, etc. In Rifts, the crappiest crap MDC pistol that ever existed is still going to obliterate you. A lot of people house-ruled the MDC to SDC conversion ratio down by a factor or two, and others used the "instant kill by MDC makes you roll on a Grievous Injury table" method to try to mitigate the problem, but as written, the MDC/SDC disparity is horrific, and you can understand the armor and arms race.

I get that and good point except PB tried to use the excuse of Northern Gun products looking like shit, being way too heavy, as an excuse for the companies designs being such. Which changed completely when the two Northern Gun books were released because in the Rifts background NG was taking a huge financial pounding from other similar designers such as Triax and Wilks. Who managed to make both solid, sturdy, lightweight designs that actually looked cool and sleek as opposed to ugly earlier crap that was and were Northern Gun products. In my earlier gaming years I played with some who were in the Canadian military and they found Kevin and the freelancers clueless to weapons design. As you guessed it the average soldier wants stopping power, sturdy, solid yet also wants lightweight. They have enough to carry around without needing to carry an unnecessarily heavy weapon. They will if nothing else can be found that is better you can bet it's not by choice.

It's the same way PB and way too many fans try to pass off Cheapo excuse me Chipwell stuff as viable. Compared to Northern Gun what a joke and only the truly insane, cheap or absolutely desperate would use that crap. PB tries to pass off the company as an actual contender with the big boys when they would go under as in Rifts Earth one does not want to wearing a suit of power armor that has much MDC material replaced with SDC.

Penalizing players for playing non-human characters such as in AD&D 1E and 2E. How about instead of worrying that no one will choose humans as a race, make them a much more interesting option than vanilla ice cream. I like that kind of ice cream yet in small amounts as eventually the taste becomes boring as fuck. Not to mention I live as human 24/7 why would I want to play won in an rpg 24/7. Which leads to my next point as too many rpg designers make humans boring they also make them the top race in way too many rpgs without a good reason simply for reasons and feels. At least give them some kind of special racial ability similar to what Earthdawn does. Not the boring, stale trope of reproducing like rabbits and a drive to succeed. The rest of the core races somehow don't desire to improve themselves and succeed.

Quote from: sureshot;1114061Instead of trying to even remotely addtess tje issue of Jedi being too powerful in D6 Star Wars their advice in a nutshell " were not doing anything to fix the issue we Jedi, hete is a bunch of shitty piss poor advice that amounts to screwing over players who use Jedi and force users".

I don't see Jedi as too powerful. Some people do. But other people complain that Jedi aren't powerful enough (based on what we see in the prequels). Clearly one set of rules can't please everyone.

I will admit that the one place where the WEG rules don't work for me is lightsaber duels. They tend to be over too quickly, there is no ramping up of power or skill, and in general they don't play out or feel like a good movie duel. That problem is driven by the rules for Force Point use.

QuoteThe bucket of dice is annoying.

I hear that it is for some people. That isn't what I've heard from my players though. And personally, I enjoy rolling a bunch of dice when I use a Force Point. (In fact, it reminds me of rolling dice for fireballs and lightning bolts in OD&D. As your magic user got to higher and higher levels you got to roll more and more dice. It was fun seeing how much damage you could inflict.) That is something that was changed in the later D6 rules where WEG provided an option to decrease the number of dice that were rolled.

Quote from: sureshot;1114090Penalizing players for playing non-human characters such as in AD&D 1E and 2E. How about instead of worrying that no one will choose humans as a race, make them a much more interesting option than vanilla ice cream.

Making their character interesting is the player's job, not mine. And whether a character is interesting or not isn't a function of the number of mechanical widgets available for the player to choose from.

Quote from: Bren;1114094I don't see Jedi as too powerful. Some people do. But other people complain that Jedi aren't powerful enough (based on what we see in the prequels). Clearly one set of rules can't please everyone.

They are not  that powerful just the way the force rules are in D6 make them imo way too versatile. Not gaming breaking just annoying.

Quote from: Bren;1114094I hear that it is for some people. That isn't what I've heard from my players though. And personally, I enjoy rolling a bunch of dice when I use a Force Point. (In fact, it reminds me of rolling dice for fireballs and lightning bolts in OD&D. As your magic user got to higher and higher levels you got to roll more and more dice. It was fun seeing how much damage you could inflict.) That is something that was changed in the later D6 rules where WEG provided an option to decrease the number of dice that were rolled.

Again not something that would stop me from playing Star Wars D6 it is a quirk of D6 systems.  If I would  run or play at higher levels definitely use the option to roll less dice that you mentioned above.

Quote from: Bren;1114094Making their character interesting is the player's job, not mine. And whether a character is interesting or not isn't a function of the number of mechanical widgets available for the player to choose from.

Sorry no that is the rpg designers job to make them interesting. It is not my IP nor am I the owner of the rules. More importantly it is not my job nor am I paid to fix the failure of the rpg designer rules. Fuck that. I can and have made interesting human characters. Given the choice in AD&D unless level limits are in use I play anything but human. Beyond no level limits they have nothing interesting in terms of racial ability. At least Earthdawn gave them an interest racial ability such as Versatility.

Quote from: sureshot;1114099Sorry no that is the rpg designers job to make them interesting.

I don't agree. These are player characters, not pieces on a board game. People make (or fail to make) their player characters interesting. Game designers can't graft imagination onto bored and boring people via lists of mechanical widgets.

Quote from: sureshot;1114099They are not  that powerful just the way the force rules are in D6 make them imo way too versatile. Not gaming breaking just annoying.

Because of how Force Powers are learned or taught, the GM has complete control on how versatile they allow a PC Jedi to become. We always considered how a Force Power might effect play before allowing a PC Jedi to learn that power. Some powers just did not become available.

And as they grew in power, we had the PC Jedi learn some Dark Side powers. It's not that the player or the PC wanted to learn that power, but as their understanding of the Force grew, they would realize that it was possible to do something with the Force. Typically this would be a power that they saw in use by an adversary (maybe one that was used against the PC) or it was a power that related to a 'good' Force Power that they were being taught or otherwise learned.

Quote from: sureshot;1114099They are not  that powerful just the way the force rules are in D6 make them imo way too versatile. Not gaming breaking just annoying.



Again not something that would stop me from playing Star Wars D6 it is a quirk of D6 systems.  If I would  run or play at higher levels definitely use the option to roll less dice that you mentioned above.



Sorry no that is the rpg designers job to make them interesting. It is not my IP nor am I the owner of the rules. More importantly it is not my job nor am I paid to fix the failure of the rpg designer rules. Fuck that. I can and have made interesting human characters. Given the choice in AD&D unless level limits are in use I play anything but human. Beyond no level limits they have nothing interesting in terms of racial ability. At least Earthdawn gave them an interest racial ability such as Versatility.

In any case, few campaigns get to the point where level limits are significant.  Meanwhile elves can see in the dark, fight and cast spells, get +1 to hit with the best weapons in the game and have improved attributes.

But I'm with you, humans need something to make them better.  One from Rolemaster is a healing multiplier.  If humans get 2 hp / day instead of 1, they'll be in the thick of the action and gaining experience points more often.