Quote from: Dumarest;959741It's unclear what Christopher Brady is upset about...

On the contrary, it's quite well-established.
He's upset that the classical editions of D&D ever existed, that they spawnedmultiple clones, and worst of all, that the people who are fans of those have, at some point, told him that in their opinion, his game sucks:D!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;959749This is just fake news. There is no situation.

Everything is a situation..

Quote from: AsenRG;960007He's upset that the classical editions of D&D ever existed, that they spawnedmultiple clones, and worst of all, that the people who are fans of those have, at some point, told him that in their opinion, his game sucks.

Indeed. He jests at scars that never felt a wound. Unless OSR barbarians are camped out outside his house on game night, trolling him through their watch fires. It is like he is annoyed they exist.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;959992It causes arguments, creates discord and promotes edition warring at the table.

So you are saying that while you were at a game table running some Adventurer's League and one of your players told you or another player that 5e sucked monkey balls? I am assuming here that the one gamer you running Scarlet Heroes didn't do that as well.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;959992Instead of letting people play the game they want, and sharing ideas, we get people who stay entrenched and yelling at everyone who DARES suggest that another game could be fun too.  It bogs down discussion and discourse and mires it in pedantry and staunches the flow of creativity.

People have opinion, they have unwarranted opinions, they also give uninvited opinions. Some people ignore these kind of options, some respond with a one line witticism. Others respond in kind, and so forth and so on. You are not going to change the people handing out these kind of opinions all you have control over is how you respond.

Personally I recommend learning how to chill in regards to tabletop roleplaying. So far everything your response is about how YOU feel. Moreso with the Adventurer's League, you are refereeing in a public location with ANYBODY welcomed to your table. This is not something that I recommend that somebody sensitive to human ignorance be doing. For me for whatever reason how I respond to this situation as a challenge. I am a good enough referee so that anybody can have fun at my table even when I am shackled with the restrictions of the Adventurer's League, or a LARP, etc, etc. But not everybody like me nor should they be. There at lot of styles that work in this situation and a lot of styles that don't.  In the nearly 40 years I been involved in this hobby, people who are sensitive to criticism don't last long when it comes to public gaming. From what little you told me, I feel you are teetering on the edge because of your sensitivity to criticism.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;959952I suspect, from what I've seen and heard in the past five years, that I was unlucky enough to encounter some of the 'first wave' of the OSR, people who came across as self-centered, self-absorbed, and self-important folks who had very little idea about what the history of the hobby had been like for those of us who lived through it. 'Consultantgate', where some of them proclaimed themselves the gatekeepers of the hobby,  and who had the last word on what should be the moral tone of same, was pretty much the final nail in the coffin. A number of them are also the people behind things like Tor Books' series on the horrible people who provided the underpinnings and inspirations for our hobby, and which damned everything I happen to like along the way. (The thread on this forum about inspirational artwork is a good example of all they loathe.)

I don't mind them holding what positions they might have, but I do draw the line at them telling me what I must believe. As I say, it gets old, and I have other things I can be doing and other purposes I can put my resources to. I much prefer the people here - they may be opinionated and truculent, but they seem to me to be genuinely interested in and devoted to this hobby.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;959998http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/

I am curious about what lead you to think that the folks you mentioned were part of the OSR. I do know that Erik Tenkar of Tenkar's Tavern has had harsh criticism of Zak S and the Pundit. And others also involved in publishing, promoting, and playing classic editions of D&D also have disputes with those two. However Consultantgate was largely driven by the run up to D&D 5e and the fact nearly everybody in the hobby weighed in not just the OSR. At least in my corner the reaction was best described as "Oh that nice." followed by returning to talk about classic D&D. All that the stuff that Wizards did with the re-release of various classic edition products built enough goodwill along with the details of 5e as it came out meant that it literally didn't get on the nerve of anybody I know. Basically the Wizards followed the same marketing path that Joseph Goodman did with the DCC RPG.

As for the Tor Book series, I looked up who Tim Callahan, and Mordicai Knode were as I did not recognize either name. And I see why I never heard of Tim as the stuff he did was not on my radar given his interest in the DCC RPG. My google search came up zilch for Mordicai Knode as far as any actual work other than commentary like his Tor articles.

This illustrate just how diverse the people are under the OSR label or for that matter playing, publishing, promoting classic editions and similar RPGs. How one's view of the OSR is greatly influenced by the particular "slice" in view at the time.

Personally I find this kind of thing interesting to dig in to see what happened when and where and trace it back. But I am well aware most just want to get on with gaming including yourself. One of the reason I wrote my post to loudly and strongly remind folks that regardless of what others say or do, the foundations of the classic editions no longer can be chained to anybody's vision no matter how hard they try or however wide their audience is.

Quote from: estar;960030blah, blah, blah.......In the nearly 40 years I been involved in this hobby, people who are sensitive to criticism don't last long when it comes to public gaming. From what little you told me, I feel you are teetering on the edge because of your sensitivity to criticism.

I wanna be on the couch.  I wanna be on the couch.

Well, you know, the OSR hates D&D.

I fucking HATE grognards. I can't fucking stand them and can't wait for them to all die off from their bitterness. On that day the sun will shine just a little brighter and the birds sing just a little more. I understand the irony in that statement.

(and I'm using a very specific definition of 'grognard' which is very similar to the one I use for my elderly relatives. They smack of bitterness because no one will play their Weapon vs AC games with them anymore. They demean and disparage anything new because it didn't suck Gary's cock. Anything different is bad.)

Quote from: bryce0lynch;960040Well, you know, the OSR hates D&D.

I fucking HATE grognards. I can't fucking stand them and can't wait for them to all die off from their bitterness. On that day the sun will shine just a little brighter and the birds sing just a little more. I understand the irony in that statement.

(and I'm using a very specific definition of 'grognard' which is very similar to the one I use for my elderly relatives. They smack of bitterness because no one will play their Weapon vs AC games with them anymore. They demean and disparage anything new because it didn't suck Gary's cock. Anything different is bad.)

Good..........Good.......... I can feel the hate swelling. Take up your blog post and strike down the memory of Gygax. Your journey to the new school will then be complete.

Quote from: estar;960035This illustrate just how diverse the people are under the OSR label or for that matter playing, publishing, promoting classic editions and similar RPGs. How one's view of the OSR is greatly influenced by the particular "slice" in view at the time...

I was going to say something similar yesterday, thought the better of it, and now, with your words, decided to add in.

I arrived to the OSR late. I began reading some of the blogs in 2010 or so I guess. I became intrigued. But I was busy with games like Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, Sorcerer, King Arthur Pendragon. But didn't buy anything (some LotFP products) until 2014 when I started digging into Classic Traveller (the original Little Black Books 1-3). I wanted to see how these earlier games worked. I ended up getting copies of Basic D&D, OD&D and so on.

I found out I really liked them!

But the key thing is the comments that Chirine ran into were not the comments I encountered. Every blog I read was all about being loosey-goosey with the rules. Miniatures were something either someone wanted to use or not use.

But keep in mind I haven't delved too deeply into the communities of many of the retro clones. I'm sure those kinds of comments Chirine mentions are out there somewhere. They're just not what I bumped into.

There were, of course, comments like "People only care about those older games because of nostalgia," which is nonsense of course. So I say, "Not true," explain it is a very different play style than games from the mid-80s on, and fun in-and-of itself. And then I move on. What am I going to do? Argue someone into submission?

And I'm sure there are people who really love OSR games and are annoying as all hell to other people. And the same holds... there are annoying people on the internet. They don't represent everyone. And you move on.

I've come to believe that the basic unit of the RPG is the players at the table. That's what matters and not much else. Conversations online can supplement that... but I don't take any of the anger seriously. Because it has no impact really on the basic unit of player at the table. As long as my players and I are having a good time we're all good. Angry or annoying people on the Internet are folks I can leave behind in a heartbeat.

Honestly I'm at a loss to understand why anyone gives a squirt what game someone else enjoys. I'm into Classic 1977 Traveller. I don't give a tinker's dam about whether someone else is using the 1981 edition a frolicking in the Third Imperium, or using Traveller: 2300 and the French are a dominant superpower in the galaxy, or the last edition I saw of Mongoose Traveller, wherein alien races are a given in the rulebook.

Seriously: why does anyone care? Come play The Fantasy Trip with me or don't. You go have fun playing GURPS Star Trek, she'll  play the heck out of FASA Trek, he'll play Last Unicorn Trek, and the cat will homebrew with bits from all three.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;960040Well, you know, the OSR hates D&D.

I fucking HATE grognards. I can't fucking stand them and can't wait for them to all die off from their bitterness. On that day the sun will shine just a little brighter and the birds sing just a little more. I understand the irony in that statement.

(and I'm using a very specific definition of 'grognard' which is very similar to the one I use for my elderly relatives. They smack of bitterness because no one will play their Weapon vs AC games with them anymore. They demean and disparage anything new because it didn't suck Gary's cock. Anything different is bad.)

Well, not to defend bitterness and such, but...just...you...wait, young one...just you wait...:-)

Quote from: AsenRG;960007On the contrary, it's quite well-established.
He's upset that the classical editions of D&D ever existed, that they spawnedmultiple clones, and worst of all, that the people who are fans of those have, at some point, told him that in their opinion, his game sucks:D!

Oh look another projection on what I said.  Given that I rather like some of the stuff from the older games and lift some of the ideas directly, I'd say you're wrong, but don't let that stop you from making stuff up.

What I don't like are the people promoting the OSR as if it's the greatest thing ever, and that everything that has come after it is garbage.  That there's only one true way to play (even if they try to subtly imply it and then hide behind 'That's not what I meant!')  You really want to rile those who think that their way is the best way, and all us 'kids' are stupid to think that newer editions are not as bad as they claim?

Just say that gaming has evolved.

Step back and look at them lose their minds. Very amusing.

And sadly, for them, it's true.  Gaming has changed, we have more games, more ideas, more people, and even more importantly, you (general, not personal) have changed.  Even if you're using the exact same three brown books that was forged by the Hand of God Gygax Himself, you're no longer that little kid at his table, and your experiences have changed the way you play.

But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.  No matter how many times people scream that it is.

Quote from: AsenRG;960007Everything is a situation..

Only if you let it be.

But then, the issue I have with threads like these is that someone feels the need to post one because they seem scared that unless you promote this little movement, it'll disappear and we won't see the old games anymore.  Like Wizards of The Coast will suddenly come into your house and take all the games that isn't the latest edition of D&D or something.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;959998http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/

Been reading some of those entries. So far I have read the ones on Vance, Dunsany, Brackett, and Leiber, and they really enjoyed them all. I guess if I keep reading, I will hit some they didn't like, but I am not seeing anything like a systematic attack on Appendix N here.

Quote from: Baulderstone;960056Been reading some of those entries. So far I have read the ones on Vance, Dunsany, Brackett, and Leiber, and they really enjoyed them all. I guess if I keep reading, I will hit some they didn't like, but I am not seeing anything like a systematic attack on Appendix N here.

I just read the Poul Anderson one - one of those Unbelievers didn't like Three Hearts & Three Lions! :eek:

Disclaimer: S'mon has not read Three Hearts & Three Lions.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;960040Well, you know, the OSR hates D&D.

I fucking HATE grognards. I can't fucking stand them and can't wait for them to all die off from their bitterness. On that day the sun will shine just a little brighter and the birds sing just a little more. I understand the irony in that statement.

(and I'm using a very specific definition of 'grognard' which is very similar to the one I use for my elderly relatives. They smack of bitterness because no one will play their Weapon vs AC games with them anymore. They demean and disparage anything new because it didn't suck Gary's cock. Anything different is bad.)

I hate people who hate grognards.

I hate people who disparage anything old because it isn't new.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;960048What I don't like are the people promoting the OSR as if it's the greatest thing ever, and that everything that has come after it is garbage.  That there's only one true way to play (even if they try to subtly imply it and then hide behind 'That's not what I meant!')  You really want to rile those who think that their way is the best way, and all us 'kids' are stupid to think that newer editions are not as bad as they claim?

And the reverse doesn't occur or it doesn't occur with regularity in regards to Shadowrun, Fate, Star Wars, GURPs, etc, etc? I can't think of a single RPG or editions hasn't been mocked or criticized in someway. Yet somehow you are specifically singling out the OSR, and you are implying that mocking newer editions of D&D is standard procedure within the OSR.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;960048But then, the issue I have with threads like these is that someone feels the need to post one because they seem scared that unless you promote this little movement, it'll disappear and we won't see the old games anymore.  Like Wizards of The Coast will suddenly come into your house and take all the games that isn't the latest edition of D&D or something.

1) Why wouldn't I encourage people to make the material I like.
2) Somehow I get the feeling that the you are on the only thinking that my post was the work of somebody who is scared. The thing with open content that I didn't touch on is that it always there to be used. If and when interest in classic editions of D&D wanes the same pieces are still available for the next generation to be used in the ways they see fit.