Quote from: Krimson;963208Is there like a list somewhere that explains what these waves are for those of us who aren't in the know?

I wrote about it a couple of times, here's one of them.

Quote from: Krimson;963208Is there like a list somewhere that explains what these waves are for those of us who aren't in the know?

It's something Pundit made up. Many people don't buy into it. Just like Grognardia Maliszewski coined the so-called Golden and Silver Age for RPGs on arbitrary metrics, that basically came down to personal taste.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;963838It's something Pundit made up. Many people don't buy into it. Just like Grognardia Maliszewski coined the so-called Golden and Silver Age for RPGs on arbitrary metrics, that basically came down to personal taste.

They're not waves in the sense of trends that follow and replace each other, but I find it an useful way to distinguish between the different OSR games.

Quote from: Voros;963263The only OSR fantasy rules that I've seen that go beyond just being cribnotes of B/X and 1e are The White Hack and The Black Hack. The White Hack is really impressively designed, so much so that it only resembles D&D in the most basic ways.

Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures takes a D&D framework and builds on it in ways that move beyond a B/X crib sheet. But I am not sure that I would characterise it as OSR or particularly "old school", in many ways it is a thoroughly modern game.

The OSR per se does little to interest me, I still have my 0e, B/X and AD&D book when I want to play that sort of game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;963831I wrote about it a couple of times, here's one of them.

It is a distinction without meaning given how the OSR operates. A commentator can pick any arbitrary segment of the OSR with a with more than a handful of publishers behind it and say it is a wave. The only accurate statement is that the OSR is increasing in diversity which includes various types of hybrids RPGs and supplements.

Here are the 30 newest self-labeled OSR releases on RPGNow. You would have to monitor this for a month or so to get a sense of what people are actually making.

1. The Dungeon of Trials
2. What Has it Got in its Pocketses, Eh?
3. The Nephilim
4. Dungeon of the Selenian Conclave
5. Book of Fantasy Races (Labyrinth Lord)
6. Purple Mountain: Temple of the Locust Lord (DCC)
7. Mageblade! Zero
8. Marvels & Malisons
9. Hit Points, Ammo Or Whatever Tracker
10. Light City #1 - The Brawler
11. Generic Monster Wheelies For Labyrinth Lord
12. Monster Wheelies For Labyrinth Lord Volume 2
13. Monster Wheelies For Labyrinth Lord
14. Castle of the Mad Archmage (OSR) Digital Bundle [BUNDLE]
15. Wheelies For Advanced Labyrinth Lord Players
16. Wheelies For Labyrinth Lord Players
17. Sanctum Secorum - Episode #24 Companion
18. Castles & Crusades Codex Classicum
19. Perfectorium Of The Golden Tentacle: An OSR Adventure
20. L'Arsenale della Principessa Guerriera
21. S2 Delver's Delights
22. Monkey Business (Digital Edition)
23.The Lost Lands: Bard's Gate - The Riot Act (SW)
24. The Lost Lands: Bard's Gate Players' Guide
25.The Lost Lands: Bard's Gate Swords and Wizardry Edition
26. BF2 Crypt of Bones (CnC)
27. BF2 Crypt of Bones (DCC)
28.Dwarves of Copper Gulch a Swords and Wizardry Compatible Adventure
29. Swords & Wizardry Compatibility Logo
30. Dungeon Crawl Classics #93: Moon-Slaves of the Cannibal Kingdom

Understand, I am in your camp and think that Arrows of Indra and Dark Albion like my own a Majestic Wilderlands a strong way to go for an OSR publisher. I am under no delusion that what I do is part of any type of larger wave other than the one where people take advantage of digital technology and open content to publish content that works with or similairly to out of print RPGs.

Quote from: estar;963241The real story is the continuing use of open content and leveraging digital technology to realize the vision of a diverse group of authors.

Case in point, while not 100% of what been published for D&D is in PDF yet it getting pretty high.

RPGNow lists over 1,188 official D&D product in PDF form.

RPGNow lists over 7,818 third party D&D products produced from open content across all editions.

Let's look at the OSR

There are 125 products for AD&D 1st
382 products for AD&D 2nd
96 products for OD&D/BX/BECMI

RPGNow lists over 2659 products produced using open content to support classic editions. Even if you aggressively cull that list is still dwarfs 603 official products produced for classic D&D.

Again the big story isn't there is any kind of wave the big story is open content unleashed a  tsunami.

And those numbers probably just list products that are tagged with the appropriate search term on OBS.  I am pretty sure there are more, both on OBS and off.  I know that using different searches, rules system, game title, etc, turns up different products and different numbers of products when looking for what a human would call the "same thing".

These numbers also do no include LULU only products, Amazon only products, and other products not on OBS.

Quote from: Larsdangly;963244I'm a little 'rules'd out' - the OSR has a ton of incredibly creative, fun material, but the rules per se are nothing special, particularly when you get out of the white-room rpg philosophizing and just play them. Honestly, I think 99% of the good things made for OSR fantasy games could have just been written explicitly for 1E and they would have been just as good (and in most respects no different).

I don't really do D&D so most of the OSR material doesn't interest me unless is it rules neutral. I prefer a book like Lionheart that I can use with any rules I want. But I do find it baffling that there are so many D&D knockoffs out there these days. I got a couple of them out of curiosity (they were free and legal) and the ones I saw were simply rewrites of D&D with slight rephrasing to avoid copyright infringements, but nothing new contributed to make it better or even different. I'd love to see a list of all the D&D clones with  what the differences actually are between rules sets. I'd rather see adventures than yet another rewrite of D&D, or at least give me some novelty in your version of D&D.

I should add that an OBS search for D&D will pull up things, like starship deck plans, that at least to me have precious little to do with D&D. But someone tagged them with "D&D".

Quote from: DavetheLost;963947I should add that an OBS search for D&D will pull up things, like starship deck plans, that at least to me have precious little to do with D&D. But someone tagged them with "D&D".

Well, we are all playing D&D right? :-)

Thinking of how some folks are really confused by RPGs and label it all "D&D"...

I've always wanted a way to categorize things where you would have a trust circle of folks who are like minded to you in categorizing things whose "votes" would tip the scales. So if a well trusted person says LotFP is in category D&D and you search for category D&D you see LotFP, but you don't see Traveller because despite hundreds of folks categorizing it D&D, no one you trust does.

Quote from: DavetheLost;963947I should add that an OBS search for D&D will pull up things, like starship deck plans, that at least to me have precious little to do with D&D. But someone tagged them with "D&D".

Every category is like that. But it better now than it was a few years ago. Also are you using the search or clicking on the categories to the upper left like I did? Because if you are using the search it going to be inaccurate.

Quote from: DavetheLost;963882And those numbers probably just list products that are tagged with the appropriate search term on OBS.  I am pretty sure there are more, both on OBS and off.  I know that using different searches, rules system, game title, etc, turns up different products and different numbers of products when looking for what a human would call the "same thing".

These numbers also do no include LULU only products, Amazon only products, and other products not on OBS.

First off the lists I created it used by clicking on the categories on the upper left. The official D&D tag can't be used by anybody other than Wizards. Search terms are more inaccurate compared to the tags on the OBS

Also RPGNow/DrivethruRPG dwarfs all other sources when it comes to digital products. Yes there are Lulu only, print only, and amazon only products. But RPGNow list serves as a useful barometer to illustrate my point. Which is that the OSR is far too diverse to say there any kind of wave going on. And it has been since around 2010-2011.

I agree with more work one could uses searches and editorial oversight to produce something with academic rigor. But the Pundit's assertion of a third wave isn't backed up by any evidence even at the level I did.

The reason I hammer on this point and similar points, the because the use of open content and digital content is the real story here. Sure segments of the group of the people playing, publishing, and promoting classic editions have very specific ideas about designing and playing RPGs. But none of them represent the OSR as a whole.

Once Marshall, Gonnerman, and Finch figured out how to replicate the classic editions using open content the cat was out of the bag so to speak. People been taking advantage of this revive a segment of the hobby and industry long thought dead.

The cost barriers are down to the point where it about to how much time and interest are you willing to put into your idea for classic D&D.

And not just classic D&D either, just today Marc Miller authorized a Cepheus Engine sub forum over on travellerrpg.com. Runequest has a small but vibrant third party hobby and industry around open content. Whether you like or dislike Fate there is no denying that they also built a strong open content community around that RPG.
Then there are the juggernaunts of Pathfinder and D&D 5e both with their own open content.

So tell me what more likely the "thing" regarding the OSR a third wave of rules tied tightly to the setting? Or the use of open content to realize a multitude of diverse products?

Quote from: RPGPundit;963831I wrote about it a couple of times, here's one of them.

Thanks Pundit. I'll read that soon!

EDIT: Ah, short article. Concise and useful. Thanks again for the link.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;963838It's something Pundit made up. Many people don't buy into it. Just like Grognardia Maliszewski coined the so-called Golden and Silver Age for RPGs on arbitrary metrics, that basically came down to personal taste.

Well yes, I know that it's just made up. It's all just made up. That doesn't invalidate Pundit's opinion because it's his perspective. The thing is, Pundit has invested a lot of time in the OSR. He may be opinionated and make generalizations, but when it comes to the OSR that works because he he makes informed opinions. I certainly don't agree with everything he says but when it comes to game stuff his remarks are a great source of data for me.

Quote from: AsenRG;963851They're not waves in the sense of trends that follow and replace each other, but I find it an useful way to distinguish between the different OSR games.

This. Exactly this. Pundit made some generalizations, and in the context of the article I think they work. Sure, the OSR may not map out that way chronologically but that doesn't matter. I don't care about splitting hairs over definitions, it's the data that I am after because the data is going to give me a perspective on taking something I enjoy and (hopefully) turn it into something other people enjoy.

Quote from: DavetheLost;963880Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures takes a D&D framework and builds on it in ways that move beyond a B/X crib sheet. But I am not sure that I would characterise it as OSR or particularly "old school", in many ways it is a thoroughly modern game.

The OSR per se does little to interest me, I still have my 0e, B/X and AD&D book when I want to play that sort of game.

I agree to a degree, I love BtW and consider it the best system/setting one could claim as OSR. But I think it stays much closer to B/X mechanics than the White or Black Hack. Regardless I think all three are good systems which is what matters.

Quote from: estar;963958And not just classic D&D either, just today Marc Miller authorized a Cepheus Engine sub forum over on travellerrpg.com. Runequest has a small but vibrant third party hobby and industry around open content. Whether you like or dislike Fate there is no denying that they also built a strong open content community around that RPG.
Then there are the juggernaunts of Pathfinder and D&D 5e both with their own open content.

Don't forget PbtA which has an explosive number of hacks out there. Some I actually prefer to AW and DW.

Quote from: Voros;964027Don't forget PbtA which has an explosive number of hacks out there. Some I actually prefer to AW and DW.

Well, DW isn't exactly the most stellar incarnation of that mechanic;).