Quote from: Casey777Tekumel's not going to be everyone's cuppa by any means but it doesn't have to presented in an inaccessible way. Some of the fans seem to want that, me I just want to have some gonzo fun. It's Dungeoncrawl+. The depth is there for when I want to use it.

This is a very good point.

I've said the same about Jorune here:

http://therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38892&postcount=14


Edit: Epic quests. Never really liked them.

Regards,
David R

Vowel discrimination.  

If I have to fight the demon lord Rrr'grrlyx for the mighty sword of Slycndyc so as I can defeat the demon king Brl'gwnt and then travel to the elven vale of dws, then I refuse to go on the quest until someone considers we have to pronounce this stuff.

Quote from: J ArcaneDude, the bloody Romans built sewers ages before the "medieval" era that most Fantasy goes for, I don't think it's at all a stretch to suggest some utter fantasy world couldn't have them as well.

That Praedor RPG I've mentioned before has an extensive and still working sewer system running underneath all of the known world, as yet another holdover from the old supercivilization of Borvaria. Then again, those same tunnels also lead into what remains of Borvaria at the edge of the map, so there's always a demand for adventurers who are willing to wade through crap and exterminate some mutant rats or nastier beasties...

QuoteIn terms of imaginative content, they're just another example of "D&D fantasy" that doesn't really have an analogue in myth, folklore, or fiction. The original conception from ODD (and maybe AD&D, I don't remember) was that they were supposed to be like Templars--monastic fighting men. But the arrival of the Paladin pretty much eclipsed that conception, so now they're preachy padres-cum-medics with weird weapon restrictions. (Yes, I know about Odo of Bayeux. So an entire class is based off of one dude?)

Personally, I think this just serves as a good argument for why the Paladin should just be dropped.  It's a terrible class really, in terms of mechanics, and it's character concept could just as easily be rolled into the cleric.  In 3.0 if I want to play a cool holy warrior, I make a cleric, because the Paladin's abilities are so utterly gimped as to be worthless, so you're much better sticking with Cleric, and either adding feats for the weapons you want, or throwing a few warrior levels in there for extra feats/BAB/weap.prof.

Quote from: John MorrowI don't think that's always a problem, depending on how it's handled.  I've never read Dante's Inferno but the version written by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (spoiler warning)

Spoiler

had Hell structured so that everyone essentially kept themselves there because there was some "reward" in their punishment that encouraged them to endure their punishment rather than walking away from it because they'd have to give up the "reward" to do so. (This is one of the things that the science fiction author, who is the main protagonists of the story, comes to understand as he walks through the various punishments.)

Not so. Try reading it again. The "inhabitants" don't escape because they won't stop doing what put them in Hell in the first place.

Spoiler Warning...





























Billy the Kid escapes from the Circle of the Violent when he decides he's done with all that violence. But when he acts violently towards a demon he has no need to attack, Minos plops him right back in the Lake of Boiling Blood.

It's not a desire for reward, it's a refusal to change.

That's how Dante shows it, too. Not that he has people escaping like that, but it's clear that all the inhabitants are too attached to their sin to give it up.

Quote from: J ArcaneDude, the bloody Romans built sewers ages before the "medieval" era that most Fantasy goes for, I don't think it's at all a stretch to suggest some utter fantasy world couldn't have them as well.

This is yet another reason I tend to look more to S&S-type fantasy for RPGs, unless I want full-blown peasants & pottage a la Harn. S&S to me is more like Rome/China/Mesopotamia (pre- or post-Islamic conquest); a lot of anachronisms and RPGisms fit better in those settings.

Quote from: fonkaygarryCan someone clue me into this Kender thing?

Yeah, meng.  I don'tlike how excessively twee* they are.  I Re-hee-heeeally don't dig the "cute, innocent child-like kleptomanic" angle, and I especially don't dig the way most people feel compelled to play them.  They ain't my thing at any speed, and I'd prefer they be in someone else's game.


*From the Wikipedia: In British English or English English, twee is from "tweet", a baby talk alteration of "sweet". It is used to denote something that is excessively or knowingly sweet, cute, precious, or quaint.

Quote from: TheQuestionManI do not like unachievable goals.

The evil that cannot be defeated, the horrors that cannot be stopped, and the bad guys who cannot be foiled.

Other than that I hate not being able to compete against my archnemesis.

This is exactly why I like Midnight*. Even with the E, D & H. I don't really like running epic quests esp those about defeating a Great Evil. Midnight is the perfect fit.

*Although I have to say, the urge is strong to turn Izzador the setting's BigBad into a kind of steam age industrialist who has banned magic, declared jihad against non-humans and is destroying the enviroment. I may have to consult droog on a couple of ideological issues...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Casey777...

• short emo elves with more hair colors than anime girls - I want tall First Age Kinslaying elves that shatter the world order & bring down the wrath of the Gods lusting after their lost creations! Elves that challenge the Dark Lord to single combat, burn for their pride, die for their passion. Burning Wheel comes close esp. The Path of Spite pdf.
  
• too many non-humans running around - IMO they're best used as spice, usually lone wanderers
  
• too many half-breeds - No parties of tweaked-out half-elves. Instead they should be as rare and different as the children of Beren and Lúthien. Half-orcs more along the lines of earlier D&D and Tolkein, odd humans instead of odd orcs.

I have to agree with these.  

Quote from: StumpydaveVowel discrimination.  

If I have to fight the demon lord Rrr'grrlyx for the mighty sword of Slycndyc so as I can defeat the demon king Brl'gwnt and then travel to the elven vale of dws, then I refuse to go on the quest until someone considers we have to pronounce this stuff.

You just need to take up the Croatian/Serbian language. Some time back they shipped most of their vowels to Amsterdam.  "Smrt" is a very real word in that language (means dead). I don't know if they have any 5+ letter words with no vowels. But the concept is basically the same.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnal retentive individuals who insist on trying to force fantasy into complying with their own conception of "what makes sense". I imagine some of these sorts as children bitching about the Care Bears. "But mommy, bears can't make beams of light come from their tummies! That would require a much higher metabolism!"

Ding! :win:

Quote from: mythusmageNot so. Try reading it again. The "inhabitants" don't escape because they won't stop doing what put them in Hell in the first place.

Spoiler Warning...





























Billy the Kid escapes from the Circle of the Violent when he decides he's done with all that violence. But when he acts violently towards a demon he has no need to attack, Minos plops him right back in the Lake of Boiling Blood.

It's not a desire for reward, it's a refusal to change.

It's both, at the same time, which is why nobody has to force them to stay.  The punishments are framed in such a way that they get a reward if they keep doing the sin(s) that got them to Hell in the first place.  This helps trap them there by giving them incentive to not change.  The punishment reinforces their sin and encourage them to keep doing it through a reward mechanism.  In the case of Billy the Kid, his violence was rewarded with a pile of bodies that would keep him out of the lake.  The people rolling the diamond back and forth were rewarded by getting to keep it.  In fact, there are plenty of people punishing each other in that story, rather than being punished by a devil or demon.  Why makes them do that rather than escaping?

Quote from: J ArcaneDude, the bloody Romans built sewers ages before the "medieval" era that most Fantasy goes for, I don't think it's at all a stretch to suggest some utter fantasy world couldn't have them as well.

And the Minoans and Harrapans had it a millennia before that.  Yeah, I got that.  But if I'm not mistaken, D&D uses Medieval trappings, not Roman (or Minoan or Harrapan) trapping.  Complaining that D&D floorplans are too Medieval seems a bit strange to me.  That's sort of like complaining that the inns don't serve Coca Cola.  There is no reason why you couldn't have Coca Cola in your fantasy inns but complaining that it's not on the price list in any published role-playing fantasy book would seem a bit odd to me.

Quote from: J ArcaneLighten up.

What makes you think I'm taking this seriously?

Quote from: J Arcanewhich brings to mind another pet peeve:  Anal retentive individuals who insist on trying to force fantasy into complying with their own conception of "what makes sense".

Dude, I'm not the one who complained that inn floor plans lacked bathrooms or outhouses.  

Quote from: J ArcaneI imagine some of these sorts as children bitching about the Care Bears.  "But mommy, bears can't make beams of light come from their tummies!  That would require a much higher metabolism!"

I'm sorry but I was under the impression I was talking to an adult.  Should we be upset that the Monster Manual doesn't contain Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, too?

Quote from: KoltarI like My 'Fantasy" to be well... FANTASY!. In other words fun!! . So, of course we gloss over stuff like that.

As long as your group has fun with it, there is nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: KoltarI just recently ran the setting of BANESTORM - which has many intentional anachronisms in it as part of the setting. One is that the world's inhabitants know of the idea of germs and infection. They DO know its generallly a good idea to wash your hands after certain things. The people in  that land gave germs the nickname of "demonettes".

Oh, there are plenty of intentional anachronisms in my game, too, including the anachronism about understanding germs and infections and so forth.  I don't have any problem with the floor plans for a fantasy inn that does contain a bathroom (I've seen more than a few that do, including ones with separate facilities for men and women that look lifted from a modern building).  But there is also nothing wrong with the floor plans for an inn having no bathrooms, given the Medieval influences of much fantasy.  In other words, my complaint isn't over anachronisms (intentional or not) but the complaint that floor plans aren't anachronistic enough.

Now, if you want to complain about the floor plans for a starship or modern office building not containing bathrooms (or containing illogical bathrooms), I think that would make sense.

Well we could just say the "fancier" and more well-to-do Inns and Taverns in a fantasy world have some kind of resemblance to indoor plumbing inside their establishments.

 If the player characters are looking  for cheap and affordable when they visit Inns and Taverns - there is always that favored patch of grasss near the trees behind the back of the tavern .

Both kinds of places could likely be present in a fantasy world.

 A starship without working restrrooms? or a designer who forgot to put them on the deckplans?
 Sounds like a cause for crew mutiny to me - or at least a new thread to be started.

- E.W.C.