So I am getting into GURPS 4e and it seems like a neat system. Now I am more used to campaigns with lots of combat and some pretty free form roleplaying in-between combats (Out current systems are Savage Worlds and D&D 4e). Investigations, puzzles, exploration, and social interaction tend to run pretty light because I find it hard to fill a whole 4 hour session with that kind of stuff. GURPS seems to have more non-combat mechanics for people to be engaged with.
Since my group already likes an action focused generic system, I'm wondering what if any role GURPS would fill. Is this better for really detailed campaigns where smaller differences are important or is this system better for insane campaign concepts that even Savage Worlds would struggle to handle? I might not end up actually playing GURPs. But if I lock down what it is good at, I can probably transfer that back to Savage Worlds to flesh out some areas. My Rules Cyclopedia let me flesh out dungeon crawling to a greater extent so I am optimistic that I'll get something out of the effort.
I have to confess that I don't play GURPS. I use the sourcebooks for sourcebooks. Older GURPS products like Horseclans are awesome and some of those settings aren't being done in any other RPG system.
The sourcebooks are incredible. The fluff in the GURPS Traveller line is some of the best that I have ever seen (and currently available from FFE as a CD-ROM).
As an example, here is one entry from GURPS: Traveller - Behind the Claw and if you can't get an adventure idea from this, you need to hang up your GM hat.
Quote from: AstroburgersAstroburgers
Astroburgers, despite its unbelievably archaic title, is the biggest fast-food
franchise in the Marches. The stylized silver "A" against an Imperial starburst
symbol is known throughout Imperial space. The secret of Astroburgers' runaway
success is their aggressive expansion policy of opening a franchise in
every port and on every world, no matter what the dangers. MA pulled off a
tremendous media coup during the 1118 Zyra police action when their new-market
team hit the planet surface 11 minutes after the first assault drop and were
serving Big Sentient burgers before the perimeter was secured. Vids of Imperial
Marines "advancing to the Astroburgers position" – and burger-joint staff
exchanging fire with local rebels during the counterattack – trebled sales
overnight and launched the AssaultBurger line. Similar dangerous media stunts
have led to a series of indictments against Astroburger executives.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1055573Since my group already likes an action focused generic system, I'm wondering what if any role GURPS would fill. Is this better for really detailed campaigns where smaller differences are important or is this system better for insane campaign concepts that even Savage Worlds would struggle to handle? I might not end up actually playing GURPs. But if I lock down what it is good at, I can probably transfer that back to Savage Worlds to flesh out some areas. My Rules Cyclopedia let me flesh out dungeon crawling to a greater extent so I am optimistic that I'll get something out of the effort.
It a toolkit. Serious the answer that it is a toolkit with tons of options to build a consistent system to adjudicate a campaign with. It can go lite where combat is merely a contest of skills, or ultra detailed. The trick is to comb the various lists (skills, advantages, disadvantages, etc) and pick the ones that suit the setting of the campaign.
For myself I used GURPS to run my Majestic Wilderlands for 20+ years. I generally run it using the core book combat system with some of the options from GURPS Martial Arts. Over the years I create notes on the various major cultures and profession that I hand to the players if they are interested. For example see this for the Myrmidon of Set (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Gods%20-%20Set,%20Myrmidon%20Template.pdf).
There no real downside except because it is a toolkit you will have to implement most of it yourself. There are product lines like Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters that does some of this. Combat will take longer to resolve on average than D&D. Mainly because everybody got options for defenses. In general GURPS mechanics have a one to one correspondence to real life or the genre. So in-game planning and preparedness is king and there is little one can do to "game" out of a situation if one is caught with their figurative pants down.
And of source the sourcebooks (both 3rd edition and 4th) are excellent summaries of a genre or time period.
Everything but supers. Sadly SJG has absolutely refused to produce a functional set of supers rules. Yes, my opinion of GURPS Supers is that low. Sorry, apply a percentile modifier to the cost of strength to find the value you look up on a chart to find the value you look up on another chart is just plain bullshit. It also doesn't get any benefit until you get to around 100 ST and then it slowly overtakes the 10:1 Strength verses Innate Attack damage differential. Never mind there's a couple ways to destroy the world on less than 100 points. Nevermind that movement powers double their effects, range modifiers double their effect, but no, strength is just a mess. There's a lot of ways they could have done it but I expect design by committee is at fault.
oh well, screed over. GURPS is lovely and I run it a lot we've done Harry Potter, Attack on Titan, cyberpunk, zombie apocalypse, biblical apocalypse, Dungeon Fantasy, wacky fantasy, Mars Attacks, it goes on and on. But no supers, I wish.
I've never used it for anything, but as sourcebook material. For that, they're quite good in turning things into a game-able format. I particuarly liked the netbook Philos Basilikos (http://web.archive.org/web/20061229072721/www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/basiliko2PR.PDF), which was useful as a player primer for the Hellenistic era.
Note: I've never used 4e. I just didn't like some design decisions and the split book nature of stuff (and I hate when a generic-ish game feels the need to write a multiversal 'setting', just let us write our settings please.)
I've used it for fantasy, although it was nothing like D&D fantasy. I've played in a Greek-esque fantasy campaign, though sadly did not last long.
I've used it for "suddenly you have powers, now what," style campaigns to see where players take things.
I've used it for both Science Fiction and Horror campaigns (the latter went over really well despite a TPK, well mostly TPK...the werewolf might have survived the avalanche.)
In general for me the idea was to pick something I wanted to run, get the sourcebooks for it and go with it. Since it was a game I was familiar with and relatively easy to use, 4E changed some things that made it less useful for me, but by that time I was pulling back to simpler systems and game systems built specifically for their genres.
The nice thing was that I ran enough of it that, the players I had could easily make characters and know most of the rules, without having to explain them again.
The one thing I never got to do what I wanted was to have our world discover a doorway to a fantasy style universe, but be unable to send anything but living organisms through. So the players are recruited from some highly trained martial artists who've other talents--biology, psychology, chemistry. Essentially send over a team of kick ass scientists/and the like to explore, and bring back information. (Of course the catch was the door was one way, though other doors back might exist.)
I use it for all sorts of things, Supers included (currently running just such a campaign). If you're already fine with your current generic system though, I'm not sure what exactly you'd be able to take from GURPS to bring back aside from idea fuel from the aforementioned setting/genre supplements.
You could maybe take a look at GURPS Mysteries, GURPS Horror and GURPS Social Engineering for some ideas on what to do when your group isn't in combat. The GURPS Action line has good advice on structuring a campaign to fit more of an action movie beat formula, with investigation and clue hunting leading to the actual mission deployment and downtime, etc.
Pretty much anything where I really want to get into strong tactical gameplay.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1055573Since my group already likes an action focused generic system, I'm wondering what if any role GURPS would fill.
Since 2005, I've only been using the source books from GURPS for sandbox game ideas. GURPS is really meant to run on a computer. I don't want to role-play a game server for my players. Some GMs don't mind acting as web servers also using Roll20, ad nauseam, on top of GURPS.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1055611Since 2005, I've only been using the source books from GURPS for sandbox game ideas. GURPS is really meant to run on a computer. I don't want to role-play a game server for my players. Some GMs don't mind acting as web servers also using Roll20, ad nauseam, on top of GURPS.
Beep boop.
Main thing I've used it for over the years is using GURPS Vehicles to make sure my pre-modern vehicle designs have something resembling realistic speed, range and crew/cargo capacities. At one point I even devised a dollars to 'pounds silver' conversion ratio for one setting that was privateer focused so that the multitude of ship designs that might be taken as prizes by were properly priced for when the PCs wanted to sell off the prizes.
I've never used any of the GURPS rules directly though.
Quote from: Chris24601;1055614Main thing I've used it for over the years is using GURPS Vehicles to make sure my pre-modern vehicle designs have something resembling realistic speed, range and crew/cargo capacities. At one point I even devised a dollars to 'pounds silver' conversion ratio for one setting that was privateer focused so that the multitude of ship designs that might be taken as prizes by were properly priced for when the PCs wanted to sell off the prizes.
I've never used any of the GURPS rules directly though.
This is hilarious to me, willingly using 3e Vehicles' design system but not the game system itself... to be clear I have absolutely nothing negative to say about that, I just don't think I've ever heard this before, anywhere.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1055619This is hilarious to me, willingly using 3e Vehicles' design system but not the game system itself... to be clear I have absolutely nothing negative to say about that, I just don't think I've ever heard this before, anywhere.
Pulling ideas from setting books and doing this kind of thing seem to be my main uses right now.
Like Savage Worlds covers a lot of the same stuff but can skim on details. McGyver edge is basically Quick Gadgeteer but the later has rules I can extrapolate from while the edge tells me to basically "wing it".
I've used GURPS since it came out. I've seen it used well in several different types and styles of game in various settings. And I've seen it used poorly (IMO).
Estar is right that it's a toolkit which gives a consistent and basically realistic/logical approach that lets you make all sorts of games in all sorts of settings... though as was also pointed out, Supers games tend to suffer from the logic, as Supers aren't particularly compatible with logic and realism. i.e. GURPS is full of logic that spoils the illogical conceits of many/most comic books & supers stories since most things are designed to make sense and be consistent.
What I mostly choose to GURPS for is what I personally think it does best, which is pre-effective-gunpowder-weapon tactical combat, played out on hex maps. Gritty deadly specific low-tech tactical combat where you map out exactly what happens and take really detailed actions and there will be good appropriate rules for it. Want to try to chop through your opponent's polearm with your greataxe? There are detailed rules for that, including the chances for what the remaining pieces your enemy holds may be usable for. On and on.
But I've also used it and seen it used for higher-level mostly-roleplaying games and other situations such as modern spy/intrigue, horror, sci fi, modern combat, and various other settings, styles, and types of gameplay.
It can be a bit tricky to GM well as someone new to GURPS, I think.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1055619This is hilarious to me, willingly using 3e Vehicles' design system but not the game system itself... to be clear I have absolutely nothing negative to say about that, I just don't think I've ever heard this before, anywhere.
The one time I tried GURPS it was far too wonkish for me in play.
GURPS Vehicles gave me realistic performance profiles (speed, cargo capacity, approximate cost) for ships (sailed, rowed or steam driven), steam boats, air ships and even a steam-powered tractor (the latter three get interesting when you throw in things like decanters of endless water and the ability to summon up fire elementals).
A lot of systems really fall down on the job on the category of transportation. I mean, 3e's ship list was literally Galley, Keelboat, Longship, Sailing Ship and Warship... none of which bore much relation to any actual historical vessel (despite being flat-bottomed, the keelboat was said to be capable of making ocean voyages). Trying to do an Age of Sail campaign when the only ships in the book capable of making sea voyages are keelboats (HA!), longships (which weren't actually used for long ocean voyages unless you count going from Scandinavia to the East Coast of Britain or North Coast of France) and sailing ships (which have only two masts and always square sails for some reason).
The speeds were also ridiculous; 1-2 mph (the longship gets to go 3 mph because I guess Vikings are awesome); they wouldn't even be able to sail up river in any but the most turgid of waters. After consulting real historical sources and figuring out that GURPS Vehicle's results mostly matched those numbers, I just started using it (and a handy builder program) whenever I needed the base stats for primitive vehicles because it gave me numbers without need to do much additional research on specific vessels (with often absent or even contradictory information).
It also let me adjust for more fantastic elements, like the presence of spellcasters in some settings obviating the need for gunpowder cannons (or other siege-based weapons) or the afore mentioned magic-based steam engine and magically levitated air vessels (the drag coefficient equations used do interesting things with ships that don't need to push through water).
Another helpful thing it provided was lots of reminders of all the little things you'd need to account for in terms of design that if I were just winging it, I'd probably never have even considered... stuff like bilge pumps and the cranes for launching and recovering landing craft/rowboats). It gives you things like a vessel's draft which is equally important for navigating in many places as just how long and wide it is (also its likely number of decks and height of its masts).
In short, it gave me a nice tool box for creating the sort of things you'd be more likely to find in a fantasy kitchen sink setting in concrete enough terms that you could then plug the results into any other game system and get a usable craft.
ETA:
Quote from: Skarg;1055629Estar is right that it's a toolkit which gives a consistent and basically realistic/logical approach that lets you make all sorts of games in all sorts of settings... though as was also pointed out, Supers games tend to suffer from the logic, as Supers aren't particularly compatible with logic and realism. i.e. GURPS is full of logic that spoils the illogical conceits of many/most comic books & supers stories since most things are designed to make sense and be consistent.
There's a reason I specified "pre-modern" in my original description. Supers vehicles are basically just "powers" a given hero or group of heroes have and are best accounted for in that way. Sci-Fi is such a wide and deep bin that you could excuse deviations from expected physical results as simply an aspect of the setting's tech (within reason).
Generally within near future settings I just use modern vehicle performance adjusted by percentages (ex. a top of the line 2050 fighter jet is 10% faster, 5% better armored, has 20% more payload, and 15% better endurance than a modern jet fighter). Anything past that its down to whatever feels right for the setting backed up by a little physics (i.e. no acceleration past about 9G for moments, 5G for minutes, 3G for up to an hour and 1G or less for non-combat acceleration unless the setting has inertial dampers... yes, I'm a fan of solar system-based sci-fi settings; ex. Jovian Chronicles; so the physics involved in that fascinates me).
Quote from: Chris24601;1055630The one time I tried GURPS it was far too wonkish for me in play.
[snip]
In short, it gave me a nice tool box for creating the sort of things you'd be more likely to find in a fantasy kitchen sink setting in concrete enough terms that you could then plug the results into any other game system and get a usable craft.
Makes sense, and I can see the utility there. I guess I've just always thought of Vehicles as being far too detail-oriented for most non-GURPS players (and even most GURPS players) to really be interested in or find useful, so your commentary took me by surprise.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1055635There's a reason I specified "pre-modern" in my original description. Supers vehicles are basically just "powers" a given hero or group of heroes have and are best accounted for in that way. Sci-Fi is such a wide and deep bin that you could excuse deviations from expected physical results as simply an aspect of the setting's tech (within reason).
Generally within near future settings I just use modern vehicle performance adjusted by percentages (ex. a top of the line 2050 fighter jet is 10% faster, 5% better armored, has 20% more payload, and 15% better endurance than a modern jet fighter). Anything past that its down to whatever feels right for the setting backed up by a little physics (i.e. no acceleration past about 9G for moments, 5G for minutes, 3G for up to an hour and 1G or less for non-combat acceleration unless the setting has inertial dampers... yes, I'm a fan of solar system-based sci-fi settings; ex. Jovian Chronicles; so the physics involved in that fascinates me).
Yes.
If you look at the vehicles in the books in the GURPS WWII series, you'll see they used a similar approach: They take the actual stats on the vehicles and then try to find the closest match in GURPS Vehicles terms, adjusting and fudging as necessary.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1055635Makes sense, and I can see the utility there. I guess I've just always thought of Vehicles as being far too detail-oriented for most non-GURPS players (and even most GURPS players) to really be interested in or find useful, so your commentary took me by surprise.
For most things I am excessively detail-oriented, and although I do find GURPS Vehicles interesting and make occasional forays into using it, mostly I find it too detail-oriented and yet, as Antiquation! pointed out, somewhat incomplete and off-target or even not detailed enough in some cases, and mostly unnecessary. However it is good, as Antiquation! also pointed out, for getting a good starting point and considering things one might not otherwise consider.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1055635Makes sense, and I can see the utility there. I guess I've just always thought of Vehicles as being far too detail-oriented for most non-GURPS players (and even most GURPS players) to really be interested in or find useful, so your commentary took me by surprise.
Yeah, I don't mind detail; in fact I love a lot of detail. The level of detail in GURPS Vehicles is absolutely my jam... when I'm not taking up table time with it.
There's a limit to how much detail can be usefully applied in a tabletop setting without it slowing the game to a crawl. Even people who are exceptional at mathematics take time to actually perform the calculations and beyond a certain point you're making the perfect simulation the enemy of the good time had by the players. At the table D&D's level of abstraction is the sweet spot for me and most people I play with; Palladium's opposed combat rolls can be fun, but the cost in speed is rarely worth it vs. targeting a static defense unless we're running a really combat heavy game where experiencing the combat at the level of moment to moment attacks, parries, dodges, etc. is part of the goal.
Similarly, most of the time, adding a Damage Reduction step to combat rarely adds much compared to what is lost in time in my experience (there have been exceptions; but as a rule the most variables you want to have in a given action is two; preferably two that can rolled for at the same time; ex. hit and damage, hit and location, hit and defense with damage as the margin of success; etc.).
On the other hand, with computer games, the more wonkish the stats the better for me; give me to-hit calculations that include facing and target profile and damage that isn't rolled, but is calculated based on location and angle of impact/armor slope and I'd be giddy; because you've got a computer making all those calculations in a fraction of a second and you just get to experience the joy of the simulation and/or wonking your way through tweaking your stats to give you the best performance within your budget.
Likewise, anything that you can do outside of a game session structure is also something I don't mind a ton of detail for. Some people watch internet cat videos for fun; I do domain management on spreadsheets and vehicle design.
GURPS is amazing for me with all the outside of a game table stuff; but once you go about having to use all of those stats generated about the vehicles in play, not so much. How fast does it go? How much can it haul? How much of a beating can it take/dish out? Does it have any special tricks? How much does it cost? Those are about the only things most tabletop players I've met actually care about and at the level of abstraction for most tabletop games that's about all you actually need 90+% of the time.
Personally I've never found the mental overhead or resolution processes required by GURPS to be burdensome or sluggish in play, particularly when I have it tuned lighter and more cinematic; in fact I find it much lighter and easier to deal with at the table and adjudicate for than most D&D editions I've personally run, save for when I plug in too many detailed, interrelated rules modules.
However, I do realize my experience is far from universal (eh? Eh? Anyone?). I think it just "clicks" with me as an engine of resolution.
I can't say I've ever had difficulty with the vehicle rules in play, they've always seemed fairly simple and straight forward to me, but everything is relative. I mainly like having detail to pull when I want or need it, and ignore/simplify/spot rule when I don't.
Anyway, yeah, I say play whatever game(s) give you your preferred "mouth feel" and steal shamelessly from the rest.
Everything !....
- I use it for everything, Every setting...
- Ed C.
What do you use GURPS for?
These days, not a damn thing.
I have been running a zombie apocalypse campaign loosely based on the walking dead series for almost two years now using GURPS. It has been my go to system for almost two decades. It works well with any genre, but especially gritty, "realistic" settings. You can ramp up the realistic or the cinematic effect as much as you want with all the optional rules. Or you can keep it simple and clean and use little to no optional rules. People seem to be scared of GURPS because they think it's overly complicated, but when you strip all the optional rules out it's just find the appropriate attribute or skill, add a modifier and roll low on 3d6. If you can get roll high on d20, you can get that.
I'm also in the "not a thing" cohort. I did buy the newish Dungeon Fantasy box back in the spring, but I've only opened it twice (once the night I purchased it, again a week later) and reading it over just didn't get me interested in it enough to go further.
It's all I use, and I mostly run fantasy.
Quote from: SCM;1056040People seem to be scared of GURPS because they think it's overly complicated, but when you strip all the optional rules out it's just find the appropriate attribute or skill, add a modifier and roll low on 3d6. If you can get roll high on d20, you can get that.
That's as disingenuous as saying D20 is simply because it's "just roll a D20 against some modifiers, higher is better". It's all the other elements and any options that create the complexity, not the basic mechanic.
Quote from: Kiero;1056092That's as disingenuous as saying D20 is simply because it's "just roll a D20 against some modifiers, higher is better". It's all the other elements and any options that create the complexity, not the basic mechanic.
Even with all the rules, I am not finding GURPS more complicated than 3.5. That being said, what's really nice about GURPS 4e is that they layered their rules in such a way that you do not need to be playing with all the rules for the game to feel complete. That kind of prevents the, "hold on I'll look it up" moments because you can just forget the rule and move on.
But it also let's players look up their rules to determine if they can do something before they ask me (most of the time, not every skill has detailed modifiers without really digging through supplements).
Quote from: Kiero;1056092That's as disingenuous as saying D20 is simply because it's "just roll a D20 against some modifiers, higher is better". It's all the other elements and any options that create the complexity, not the basic mechanic.
My point is that GURPS isn't more complicated than any other system. Page 8-9 of the Basic Set is all you need to know to play. The rest is just flavor. Besides my ZA campaign I've mainly used it for fantasy campaigns and find it works better than the other major systems designed specifically around that genre.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1055646However, I do realize my experience is far from universal (eh? Eh? Anyone?). I think it just "clicks" with me as an engine of resolution.
I'm right there with you. I run a very basic GURPS £rd Ed. game. Once chargen is out of the way it's a simple to grasp roll under with 3d6 and use defaults or wing it for skills the character doesn't have, theater of the mind for combat with very few of the extra combat options, and magic in the hands of NPCs. I mostly run low fantasy, but have done a few weird wars, and gritty modern one shots too.
Since I backed TFT and found my old "Man to Man" book, I'm itching to run a "tournament of gladiators" with my family.
150 points, no disadvantages, TL 4 maybe. Having not played M2M since the 80s I'm just learning via Gurps lite. Fun anyway...I like the IDEA of GURPS.
GURPS is not really very complicated, especially without the advanced and optional rules, but it is very different from D&D, and the 4e Basic Set is stuffed full of rules for nearly every type of game, which makes it a reference manual that's hard (even for me) to wade through to find the core game rules. But there is GURPS Lite, and a skilled GURPS GM can teach people who have never played GURPS or never played an RPG pretty easily, or just use English and translate to rules inside the GM's head.
If you look at Man To Man or the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd edition GURPS Basic Sets, not to mention GURPS Lite, or one of the Powered By GURPS editions, the rules are presented in much more learnable format.
It seems to me that GURPS also benefits from all its rules trying to make sense and just generate plausible logical results for things that happen, with very few things that are "just how the game works". For example, the Strength attribute affects how much you can carry, what weapons you can use without a penalty, how much damage you do, and how well you can overpower people when struggling with them, how far you can jump, etc., and work out to real-world-like results. (As opposed to, for example, having almost no effect, but giving you an experience bonus if it is high and it is the "prime requisite" for your "class".) So a good GM can also extrapolate in the absence or ignorance of specific rules.
I did run GURPS a couple of times in the 90s and early 2000s, but what I mostly used GURPS books for was the 3e historical sourcebooks.
Quote from: SCM;1056098My point is that GURPS isn't more complicated than any other system. Page 8-9 of the Basic Set is all you need to know to play. The rest is just flavor. Besides my ZA campaign I've mainly used it for fantasy campaigns and find it works better than the other major systems designed specifically around that genre.
My point is that it's just as complicated as lots of other mainstream systems.
Quote from: SCM;1056098My point is that GURPS isn't more complicated than any other system. Page 8-9 of the Basic Set is all you need to know to play. The rest is just flavor. Besides my ZA campaign I've mainly used it for fantasy campaigns and find it works better than the other major systems designed specifically around that genre.
If it's a 10 page game, they shouldn't hide it in 2 books that clock in at almost 600 pages. Someone who's experienced with the full game can certainly cut it back down, but paring something back to its essentials actually requires quite a bit of experience, skill, and knowledge. To someone who's just been introduced to the game, it's not a 10 page game, it's a 576 page game.
I played 3rd edition a lot, and really enjoyed the overwritten insanity of GURPS GULLIVER (an almost million-word fan supplement on size and scale). But even I find the dense and encyclopedic 4e corebooks hard to grok, because I never spent the time to acclimate myself to the new edition. And if that's true for someone with my background, then a newbie will be lost.
GURPS Lite works as an alternative, but if you use any sourcebooks you'll constantly run into things you don't understand, which leads to frustration. Not only that, SJG clearly intends it to be a set of training wheels, not a final product, except when it appears in those Powered by GURPS stand-alone RPGs.
Quote from: Pat;1056469If it's a 10 page game, they shouldn't hide it in 2 books that clock in at almost 600 pages. Someone who's experienced with the full game can certainly cut it back down, but paring something back to its essentials actually requires quite a bit of experience, skill, and knowledge. To someone who's just been introduced to the game, it's not a 10 page game, it's a 576 page game.
I played 3rd edition a lot, and really enjoyed the overwritten insanity of GURPS GULLIVER (an almost million-word fan supplement on size and scale). But even I find the dense and encyclopedic 4e corebooks hard to grok, because I never spent the time to acclimate myself to the new edition. And if that's true for someone with my background, then a newbie will be lost.
GURPS Lite works as an alternative, but if you use any sourcebooks you'll constantly run into things you don't understand, which leads to frustration. Not only that, SJG clearly intends it to be a set of training wheels, not a final product, except when it appears in those Powered by GURPS stand-alone RPGs.
I've found the easiest way to learn GURPS 4e by yourself is to just read the book, focusing on sections that interest you first.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1056471I've found the easiest way to learn GURPS 4e by yourself is to just read the book, focusing on sections that interest you first.
Should have been clear from my post, but I've read both books. I just haven't spend the time to develop any real degree of mastery.
Quote from: SCM;1056098My point is that GURPS isn't more complicated than any other system. Page 8-9 of the Basic Set is all you need to know to play.
As a GURPS referee since 1988, that is horseshit. Page 8 to 9 function as an overview of basic concepts with references to look up further details. All it explains are success rolls, reactions rolls, and damage rolls and focuses on the conventions of using them not how how one obtains WHAT to rule as a player or referee. For that you need the rest of the book.
So for the general point, the central tension of GURPS has been the various lists. It isn't that any one section is particularly complicated but rather by focusing on being THE generic RPG, the core books are comprised mostly of list of elements like skills or options like the different level of details with combat. (Very Basic, Basic, with a Grid). Of the two is is all the list that are the most problematic. The GURPS 4th edition core books are a toolkit from which you design the RPG you want to use for your campaign. Not many gamers are interested in doing that these days hence it's slide in popularity.
In comparison GURPS 2nd edition boxed set, which also had two book, has a comparably shorter list of elements, mostly oriented toward the fantasy genre. For that reason it was far more approachable to learn and master despite it being basically the same game as it is today.
GURPS issues are born solely of presentation not design.
It's kind of silly how "too many options" is THE complaint about GURPS basic set.
GURPS is a toolkit if players are not GM levels of invested into the system. I imagine being able to one day say, "Make 100 point characters for a TL3 fantasy game. You will get 5 characters points a session. Justify every ability, skill, or disadvantage you get in a way that makes sense for the world."
In reality I would probably have to say, "Here are some 100 point template. Here is a list of disadvantages, take up to 50 points of them to qualify for these racial template or to select abilities/skills from this list. If you want to make custom characters please do" - which at that point, you are using GURPS as a tool kit because you just kind of made a game.
I've still got a lot of Savage Worlds games to play, but GURPS will remain a good reference until my groups want to try something different.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1056479It's kind of silly how "too many options" is THE complaint about GURPS basic set.
.....
*> "Here are some 100 point template.
*> Here is a list of disadvantages,
*> take up to 50 points of them to qualify for these racial template or to select abilities/skills from this list.
And exactly where those come from? If not from the referee having to sit down with the core books and coming up with those lists themselves. Because they are not found in the core books.
Hence the complaint GURPS is a toolkit used to design the rules for one's campaign. Compared to other RPGs that are far more ready to go and don't have this step.
In general that not an issue (for example Fate or Savage Worlds) except when the various lists grow beyond a certain point.
Quote from: estar;1056481And exactly where those come from? If not from the referee having to sit down with the core books and coming up with those lists themselves. Because they are not found in the core books.
Hence the complaint GURPS is a toolkit used to design the rules for one's campaign. Compared to other RPGs that are far more ready to go and don't have this step.
That is what I said...
And you only have to do that step when your players do not have any idea what they are doing/completely un-invested in the system. At which point the GM has to build a lighter game (hence toolkit).
Full GURPS is a game, but that requires players to give GURPS 1% the effort they gave D&D3.5, which you can't expect for a non-D&D game (for some reason)
Dungeon Fantasy.
Quote from: Eisenmann;1056486Dungeon Fantasy.
I've heard good things about it, but I would rather have one big book instead of all the little books that make up dungeon fantasy, which may just mean that I am not the target audience.
Quote from: Eisenmann;1056486Dungeon Fantasy.
A step in the right direction but it still 250 pts which results in
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2916[/ATTACH]
Which is derived from
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2917[/ATTACH]
and
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2918[/ATTACH]
When it could have been something that produced something like (although with some non-combat skills)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2919[/ATTACH]
Using templates like this for my Myrmidons of Set (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Gods%20-%20Set,%20Myrmidon%20Template.pdf)
Or better yet template about as complex as these done for the fan made GURPS historical folks (http://www.mygurps.com/historical_folks_4e.pdf).
The problem is that with the last downturn in the RPG Market and Munchkins and Board games occupying the lion share of SJ Games development time, the GURPS line shifted from being approachable to something that caters to its dedicated fan base. As a consequence not only it slipped from being the #3/#4 RPG in the industry but also slipped from being the #1 generic RPG relative to others like Savage Worlds and Fate.
It stems from the initial decision of presenting 4th edition as a toolkit reference and when the line shifted to produce ready to run supplement like Dungeon Fantasy they opted for the higher point totals which brings in a lot of moving parts as in more advantages, disadvantages, skills, and abilities. Along with weird takes like going for Discworld, Mars Attacks, and focusing heavily on the kill them and get their loot aspect of dungeon crawling.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1056493I've heard good things about it, but I would rather have one big book instead of all the little books that make up dungeon fantasy, which may just mean that I am not the target audience.
The DF RPG is different than GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. The former is a complete RPG presented as five books except bundled together (http://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/). The five books are Adventurers, Exploits (Rules), Spells, Monsters, and Delvers to Go.
The latter is a series of supplements for the GURPS Core books that allow you to get doing with campaign focused on exploring dungeon. All you need are the first two. The rest are supplements expanding one or more aspects of the idea.
Yes to everything you said, Estar.
Your Sir Ellestan format is about like the format I tend to write up characters, and IMO there are too few (if any) examples in 4e of writing up a character that way - i.e. you list the values you need to play with them, in an easy-to-read-and-find-things format. Not like the published 4e examples, which tend to be a wall of unformatted text with lots of useless numbers showing how many points were spent and what the offset to an attribute is, not the value you roll against in play.
And yeah, the examples having hundreds of points for starting characters seems like madness to me, too.
There should be cut-down versions of the rules that, like 1st and 2nd edition, only include the needed stuff for one play style.
Quote from: Kiero;1056465My point is that it's just as complicated as lots of other mainstream systems.
I never said it was complicated. It just isn't any harder to learn or master than any of the other major systems out there.
Quote from: Pat;1056469If it's a 10 page game, they shouldn't hide it in 2 books that clock in at almost 600 pages. Someone who's experienced with the full game can certainly cut it back down, but paring something back to its essentials actually requires quite a bit of experience, skill, and knowledge. To someone who's just been introduced to the game, it's not a 10 page game, it's a 576 page game.
I played 3rd edition a lot, and really enjoyed the overwritten insanity of GURPS GULLIVER (an almost million-word fan supplement on size and scale). But even I find the dense and encyclopedic 4e corebooks hard to grok, because I never spent the time to acclimate myself to the new edition. And if that's true for someone with my background, then a newbie will be lost.
GURPS Lite works as an alternative, but if you use any sourcebooks you'll constantly run into things you don't understand, which leads to frustration. Not only that, SJG clearly intends it to be a set of training wheels, not a final product, except when it appears in those Powered by GURPS stand-alone RPGs.
I don't know what they are hiding. In the 4th edition it clearly states in the index "Quick Start." Then on page 8 the first paragraph under "Quick Start" it talks about a brief guide to the whole system. People don't seem to have a problem with the Pathinder core rulebook (576 pages) or Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition (640 pages PHB and DMG). And those are for very specific genres. GURPS is trying to cover everything. If you want to trim out all the stuff you don't need from the basic set because you only want to play for example fantasy and you don't have time to do it then get the Fantasy source book.
An overview of the basic concepts which is the basic task resolution of the system which is the heart of any system. None of the lists are complicated in the least bit if you have a general idea of how to read them. When I first looked at D&D 3rd edition and Pathfinder stat blocs for their monsters they looked crazy. Then I sat down and read the rule book and learned how to read them. Since you've been playing GURPS since 1988 you should be well aware that while some of the other major systems have gone through multiple major revisions over the years GURPS is essentially unchanged since the 1st edition. Other than greatly expanding the skill, advantages, and disadvantages lists and some minor point cost changes the task resolution and other core concepts are unchanged.
I like how you boiled down the character to an easier to read stat bloc but none of those stat blocs are difficult to read if you know how to read them. Just like any other systems stat blocs. While very well done books I agree that the decision to put out hard back books of Disc World (in a generally american market) and a very niche genre like Mars Attacks was an odd decision. The Disc World book did an outstanding job of integrating the rules into a very specific setting. If they would do that for more popular settings like Conan, Middle earth, or Star Wars for example I think they would do very well.
Quote from: estar;1056476As a GURPS referee since 1988, that is horseshit. Page 8 to 9 function as an overview of basic concepts with references to look up further details. All it explains are success rolls, reactions rolls, and damage rolls and focuses on the conventions of using them not how how one obtains WHAT to rule as a player or referee. For that you need the rest of the book.
So for the general point, the central tension of GURPS has been the various lists. It isn't that any one section is particularly complicated but rather by focusing on being THE generic RPG, the core books are comprised mostly of list of elements like skills or options like the different level of details with combat. (Very Basic, Basic, with a Grid). Of the two is is all the list that are the most problematic. The GURPS 4th edition core books are a toolkit from which you design the RPG you want to use for your campaign. Not many gamers are interested in doing that these days hence it's slide in popularity.
In comparison GURPS 2nd edition boxed set, which also had two book, has a comparably shorter list of elements, mostly oriented toward the fantasy genre. For that reason it was far more approachable to learn and master despite it being basically the same game as it is today.
GURPS issues are born solely of presentation not design.
An overview of the basic concepts which is the basic task resolution of the system which is the heart of any system. None of the lists are complicated in the least bit if you have a general idea of how to read them. When I first looked at D&D 3rd edition and Pathfinder stat blocs for their monsters they looked crazy. Then I sat down and read the rule book and learned how to read them. Since you've been playing GURPS since 1988 you should be well aware that while some of the other major systems have gone through multiple major revisions over the years GURPS is essentially unchanged since the 1st edition. Other than greatly expanding the skill, advantages, and disadvantages lists and some minor point cost changes the task resolution and other core concepts are unchanged.
Quote from: estar;1056494A step in the right direction but it still 250 pts which results in
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2916[/ATTACH]
Which is derived from
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2917[/ATTACH]
and
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2918[/ATTACH]
When it could have been something that produced something like (although with some non-combat skills)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2919[/ATTACH]
Using templates like this for my Myrmidons of Set (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Gods%20-%20Set,%20Myrmidon%20Template.pdf)
Or better yet template about as complex as these done for the fan made GURPS historical folks (http://www.mygurps.com/historical_folks_4e.pdf).
The problem is that with the last downturn in the RPG Market and Munchkins and Board games occupying the lion share of SJ Games development time, the GURPS line shifted from being approachable to something that caters to its dedicated fan base. As a consequence not only it slipped from being the #3/#4 RPG in the industry but also slipped from being the #1 generic RPG relative to others like Savage Worlds and Fate.
It stems from the initial decision of presenting 4th edition as a toolkit reference and when the line shifted to produce ready to run supplement like Dungeon Fantasy they opted for the higher point totals which brings in a lot of moving parts as in more advantages, disadvantages, skills, and abilities. Along with weird takes like going for Discworld, Mars Attacks, and focusing heavily on the kill them and get their loot aspect of dungeon crawling.
I like how you boiled down the character to an easier to read stat bloc but none of those stat blocs are difficult to read if you know how to read them. Just like any other systems stat blocs. While very well done books I agree that the decision to put out hard back books of Disc World (in a generally american market) and a very niche genre like Mars Attacks was an odd decision. The Disc World book did an outstanding job of integrating the rules into a very specific setting. If they would do that for more popular settings like Conan, Middle earth, or Star Wars for example I think they would do very well.
Quote from: SCM;1056974...Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition (640 pages PHB and DMG)...
I had to double check that. I forgot that the 5e PH is 320 pages long.
What did they even put in there? Because I am not remembering 320 pages of content and I read through that book page by page.
GURPS Lite 3e was definitely my favorite edition of GURPS.
GURPS 4E currently stops other RPGs from falling over on my bookshelf.
(this is based on experience with 3ed, but that's supposed to be very similar to 4ed?)
Quote from: Rhedyn;1055573Since my group already likes an action focused generic system, I'm wondering what if any role GURPS would fill. Is this better for really detailed campaigns where smaller differences are important or is this system better for insane campaign concepts that even Savage Worlds would struggle to handle?
If you're familiar with Savage Worlds, then you use GURPS because you like front loaded complexity in character creation that basically disappears during game play while providing a ton more granularity and options than Savage Worlds.
Personally though, I find it shares some of the same flaws as Savage Worlds (Character flaws for points that just get forgotten; wealth and gear making powers obsolete and expensive) and would only recommend it for people who tried Savage Worlds and wanted a system that offers more customization and mechanical depth in characters.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1055573I might not end up actually playing GURPs.
Supplements for 3ed can be a lot of fun, but you can probably avoid any of David "RPGs are about massive accounting" Pulver's books (his "fluffy" books, like Reign of Steel or Psionics, can be fun though).
Quote from: Imaginos;1057630GURPS 4E currently stops other RPGs from falling over on my bookshelf.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/cF7QqO5DYdft6/giphy.webp)
I've been wanting to run a Fallout campaign with GURPS. I've been slowly working on my Fallout: Arkansas setting for a while now and have quite a bit of material amassed.
Quote from: Arkansan;1057895I've been wanting to run a Fallout campaign with GURPS. I've been slowly working on my Fallout: Arkansas setting for a while now and have quite a bit of material amassed.
You could also use Other Dust. It's a great OSR game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058164You could also use Other Dust. It's a great OSR game.
If somebody is looking to use Fallout (EDIT: GURPS. I meant GURPS, damn it), I doubt they'd be happy with running Other Dust/Stars Without Number. "I'm looking to use a system based on point-buy and skills" doesn't mesh well with "here's a system that's class-based with fixed class abilities" in my opinion. That said, all of Kevin Crawford's books are works of love, and worth picking up for the random creation tables alone. Other Dust has some on ruin, wasteland, and group creation that could prove inspiring for someone needing a jump start on those topics.
Quote from: san dee jota;1058213If somebody is looking to use Fallout, I doubt they'd be happy with running Other Dust/Stars Without Number. "I'm looking to use a system based on point-buy and skills" doesn't mesh well with "here's a system that's class-based with fixed class abilities" in my opinion. That said, all of Kevin Crawford's books are works of love, and worth picking up for the random creation tables alone. Other Dust has some on ruin, wasteland, and group creation that could prove inspiring for someone needing a jump start on those topics.
True. for post-apocalypse games I pretty much exclusively use GURPS (I can be convinced to use AFMBE), but Other Dust is pretty much always used in the background if I wanna randomly generate story stuff.
Mostly for the supplements, I've got quite a stack of those. I've had some fun with 3rd Ed mostly running fantasy, but while in theory I like GURPS I always seem to find a reason to use something else.
I was looking forward to 4th Ed, but when it got here it really sapped my interest in the game for reasons I have trouble identifying.
Are GURPS products still coming out?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058512Are GURPS products still coming out?
Like clockwork actually if you count the magazines. The bigger books seem to take longer, but last I heard they have at least 2 full time staff and they contract out for requested work.
It's no Paizo and maybe even WotC is coming out with more books per year, but they are producing.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058512Are GURPS products still coming out?
The last release was
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons, just 4 days ago on September 27 (//www.sjgames.com/newproducts/). Their new releases page (http://www.sjgames.com/newproducts/nrshipped.html?y=2018) is mostly Munchkin as you'd expect, but there's been a steady stream of new GURPS PDFs since 4th edition was released, a new print book or two every year, lately they've been doing print on demand reprints of GURPS 3rd edition titles, and Pyramid isn't quite dead yet.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058512Are GURPS products still coming out?
In PDF form about 2 to 3 times a month.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058164You could also use Other Dust. It's a great OSR game.
That would be my choice. It is excellent. The classes are not that restrictive:
Scrounger: You find stuff (skills and tech guy)
Slayer: You kill things (fighters)
Speaker: You use social skills (leaders and merchants)
Survivor: A tough traveler (rangers and explorers)
Each class has a special ability that sets it apart. For example, the Survivor is "Hard to Kill."
Quote from: Pat;1058523The last release was GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons, just 4 days ago on September 27 (//www.sjgames.com/newproducts/). Their new releases page (http://www.sjgames.com/newproducts/nrshipped.html?y=2018) is mostly Munchkin as you'd expect, but there's been a steady stream of new GURPS PDFs since 4th edition was released, a new print book or two every year, lately they've been doing print on demand reprints of GURPS 3rd edition titles, and Pyramid isn't quite dead yet.
Is anything coming out that isn't Dungeon Fantasy?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058976Is anything coming out that isn't Dungeon Fantasy?
I wish. More After the End books would be great, but post apocalypse stuff sells very poorly for SJG, so I understand lack of it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058976Is anything coming out that isn't Dungeon Fantasy?
Yes, there are a few upcoming items which are related to the following lines: Steampunk, Monster Hunter, Powers, Social Engineering, Tactical Shooting and High Tech (plus some other projects further out which are still secret). The last Pyramid was After the End-related.
Still, Dungeon Fantasy content has been pushed pretty hard since its release. My favorite addition to this line is actually 3rd party licensed, written by Douglas Cole at Gaming Ballistic, named "Hall of Judgement," which is technically a conversion but-not-quite because it was expanded into sort of a setting book and really altered pretty drastically.
I'm running a GURPS Marvel Superheroes campaign right now. As a long time detractor of the super strength rules, I'll admit I'm warming to them a little. I still feel there are lots of things that don't balance well at high points levels. I've banned GURPS Magic and Ultra Tech as options. All of the super tech is handled as gadgets.
Years ago, I tweaked the Strength table so that your carrying capacity would double every 5 points above ST 10 instead of the original format of ST^2. This made it possible to have a supers levels of carrying capacity at a more feasible point cost.
The Champions method, but yeah, if I wasn't lazy and using the Unofficial Guide to the Marvel Universe, that would be a good move.
To my earlier point, is anyone interested in a pretty nice 4th edition GURPs collection?
Quote from: Imaginos;1059373To my earlier point, is anyone interested in a pretty nice 4th edition GURPs collection?
Yes, but my interest in more physical books is below what they are worth.
You could probably get a better deal by throwing them on Amazon or Craigslist.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1059377Yes, but my interest in more physical books is below what they are worth.
You could probably get a better deal by throwing them on Amazon or Craigslist.
Most likely going to put them on Facebook RPG trade/sell groups. I find my tolerance for TBP is hindering even selling some stuff there nowadays.
Quote from: Imaginos;1059378Most likely going to put them on Facebook RPG trade/sell groups. I find my tolerance for TBP is hindering even selling some stuff there nowadays.
That sounds like a good plan.
TBP should be avoided in general. There is no reason to further enable their cyberbullying.