Quote from: Kiero;1056465My point is that it's just as complicated as lots of other mainstream systems.

I never said it was complicated. It just isn't any harder to learn or master than any of the other major systems out there.

Quote from: Pat;1056469If it's a 10 page game, they shouldn't hide it in 2 books that clock in at almost 600 pages. Someone who's experienced with the full game can certainly cut it back down, but paring something back to its essentials actually requires quite a bit of experience, skill, and knowledge. To someone who's just been introduced to the game, it's not a 10 page game, it's a 576 page game.

I played 3rd edition a lot, and really enjoyed the overwritten insanity of GURPS GULLIVER (an almost million-word fan supplement on size and scale). But even I find the dense and encyclopedic 4e corebooks hard to grok, because I never spent the time to acclimate myself to the new edition. And if that's true for someone with my background, then a newbie will be lost.

GURPS Lite works as an alternative, but if you use any sourcebooks you'll constantly run into things you don't understand, which leads to frustration. Not only that, SJG clearly intends it to be a set of training wheels, not a final product, except when it appears in those Powered by GURPS stand-alone RPGs.

I don't know what they are hiding. In the 4th edition it clearly states in the index "Quick Start." Then on page 8 the first paragraph under "Quick Start" it talks about a brief guide to the whole system. People don't seem to have a problem with the Pathinder core rulebook (576 pages) or Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition (640 pages PHB and DMG). And those are for very specific genres. GURPS is trying to cover everything. If you want to trim out all the stuff you don't need from the basic set because you only want to play for example fantasy and you don't have time to do it then get the Fantasy source book.

An overview of the basic concepts which is the basic task resolution of the system which is the heart of any system. None of the lists are complicated in the least bit if you have a  general idea of how to read them. When I first looked at D&D 3rd edition and Pathfinder stat blocs for their monsters they looked crazy. Then I sat down and read the rule book and learned how to read them. Since you've been playing GURPS since 1988 you should be well aware that while some of the other major systems have gone through multiple major revisions over the years GURPS is essentially unchanged since the 1st edition. Other than greatly expanding the skill, advantages, and disadvantages lists and some minor point cost changes the task resolution and other core concepts are unchanged.

I like how you boiled down the character to an easier to read stat bloc but none of those stat blocs are difficult to read if you know how to read them. Just like any other systems stat blocs. While very well done books I agree that the decision to put out hard back books of Disc World (in a generally american market) and a very niche genre like Mars Attacks was an odd decision. The Disc World book did an outstanding job of integrating the rules into a very specific setting. If they would do that for more popular settings like Conan, Middle earth, or Star Wars for example I think they would do very well.

Quote from: estar;1056476As a GURPS referee since 1988, that is horseshit. Page 8 to 9 function as an overview of basic concepts with references to look up further details. All it explains are success rolls, reactions rolls, and damage rolls and focuses on the conventions of using them not how how one obtains WHAT to rule as a player or referee. For that you need the rest of the book.

So for the general point, the central tension of GURPS has been the various lists. It isn't that any one section is particularly complicated but rather by focusing on being THE generic RPG, the core books are comprised mostly of list of elements like skills or options like the different level of details with combat. (Very Basic, Basic, with a Grid). Of the two is is all the list that are the most problematic. The GURPS 4th edition core books are a toolkit from which you design the RPG you want to use for your campaign. Not many gamers are interested in doing that these days hence it's slide in popularity.

In comparison GURPS 2nd edition boxed set, which also had two book, has a comparably shorter list of elements, mostly oriented toward the fantasy genre. For that reason it was far more approachable to learn and master despite it being basically the same game as it is today.

GURPS issues are born solely of presentation not design.

An overview of the basic concepts which is the basic task resolution of the system which is the heart of any system. None of the lists are complicated in the least bit if you have a  general idea of how to read them. When I first looked at D&D 3rd edition and Pathfinder stat blocs for their monsters they looked crazy. Then I sat down and read the rule book and learned how to read them. Since you've been playing GURPS since 1988 you should be well aware that while some of the other major systems have gone through multiple major revisions over the years GURPS is essentially unchanged since the 1st edition. Other than greatly expanding the skill, advantages, and disadvantages lists and some minor point cost changes the task resolution and other core concepts are unchanged.

Quote from: estar;1056494A step in the right direction but it still 250 pts which results in

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2916[/ATTACH]

Which is derived from

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2917[/ATTACH]

and

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2918[/ATTACH]

When it could have been something that produced something like (although with some non-combat skills)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2919[/ATTACH]

Using templates like this for my Myrmidons of Set

Or better yet template about as complex as these done for the fan made GURPS historical folks.

The problem is that with the last downturn in the RPG Market and Munchkins and Board games occupying the lion share of SJ Games development time, the GURPS line shifted from being approachable to something that caters to its dedicated fan base. As a consequence not only it slipped from being the #3/#4 RPG in the industry but also slipped from being the #1 generic RPG relative to others like Savage Worlds and Fate.

It stems from the initial decision of presenting 4th edition as a toolkit reference and when the line shifted to produce ready to run supplement like Dungeon Fantasy they opted for the higher point totals which brings in a lot of moving parts as in more advantages, disadvantages, skills, and abilities. Along with weird takes like going for Discworld, Mars Attacks, and focusing heavily on the kill them and get their loot aspect of dungeon crawling.

I like how you boiled down the character to an easier to read stat bloc but none of those stat blocs are difficult to read if you know how to read them. Just like any other systems stat blocs. While very well done books I agree that the decision to put out hard back books of Disc World (in a generally american market) and a very niche genre like Mars Attacks was an odd decision. The Disc World book did an outstanding job of integrating the rules into a very specific setting. If they would do that for more popular settings like Conan, Middle earth, or Star Wars for example I think they would do very well.

Quote from: SCM;1056974...Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition (640 pages PHB and DMG)...

I had to double check that. I forgot that the 5e PH is 320 pages long.

What did they even put in there? Because I am not remembering 320 pages of content and I read through that book page by page.

GURPS Lite 3e was definitely my favorite edition of GURPS.

GURPS 4E currently stops other RPGs from falling over on my bookshelf.

(this is based on experience with 3ed, but that's supposed to be very similar to 4ed?)

Quote from: Rhedyn;1055573Since my group already likes an action focused generic system, I'm wondering what if any role GURPS would fill. Is this better for really detailed campaigns where smaller differences are important or is this system better for insane campaign concepts that even Savage Worlds would struggle to handle?

If you're familiar with Savage Worlds, then you use GURPS because you like front loaded complexity in character creation that basically disappears during game play while providing a ton more granularity and options than Savage Worlds.

Personally though, I find it shares some of the same flaws as Savage Worlds (Character flaws for points that just get forgotten; wealth and gear making powers obsolete and expensive) and would only recommend it for people who tried Savage Worlds and wanted a system that offers more customization and mechanical depth in characters.  

Quote from: Rhedyn;1055573I might not end up actually playing GURPs.

Supplements for 3ed can be a lot of fun, but you can probably avoid any of David "RPGs are about massive accounting" Pulver's books (his "fluffy" books, like Reign of Steel or Psionics, can be fun though).

Quote from: Imaginos;1057630GURPS 4E currently stops other RPGs from falling over on my bookshelf.

I've been wanting to run a Fallout campaign with GURPS. I've been slowly working on my Fallout: Arkansas setting for a while now and have quite a bit of material amassed.

Quote from: Arkansan;1057895I've been wanting to run a Fallout campaign with GURPS. I've been slowly working on my Fallout: Arkansas setting for a while now and have quite a bit of material amassed.

You could also use Other Dust. It's a great OSR game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1058164You could also use Other Dust. It's a great OSR game.

If somebody is looking to use Fallout (EDIT: GURPS.  I meant GURPS, damn it), I doubt they'd be happy with running Other Dust/Stars Without Number.  "I'm looking to use a system based on point-buy and skills" doesn't mesh well with "here's a system that's class-based with fixed class abilities" in my opinion.  That said, all of Kevin Crawford's books are works of love, and worth picking up for the random creation tables alone.  Other Dust has some on ruin, wasteland, and group creation that could prove inspiring for someone needing a jump start on those topics.

Quote from: san dee jota;1058213If somebody is looking to use Fallout, I doubt they'd be happy with running Other Dust/Stars Without Number.  "I'm looking to use a system based on point-buy and skills" doesn't mesh well with "here's a system that's class-based with fixed class abilities" in my opinion.  That said, all of Kevin Crawford's books are works of love, and worth picking up for the random creation tables alone.  Other Dust has some on ruin, wasteland, and group creation that could prove inspiring for someone needing a jump start on those topics.

True. for post-apocalypse games I pretty much exclusively use GURPS (I can be convinced to use AFMBE), but Other Dust is pretty much always used in the background if I wanna randomly generate story stuff.