First, forgive me if I use terms inaccurately, this isn't an area of tabletop I've had much experience with.
For those who are unfamiliar, Necromunda was a game by the Games Workshop where each player put together a gang of gunslingers and then competes with others for resources in a dystopian hive-city's lower depths. While the game can be played as one-off clashes, it really shines when you play it in campaign mode, where you have to roll after each clash to see who lives, who dies, who limps away with permanent injuries, who learns new skills, etc. You also get to make choices in hiring new gang members, purchasing equipment (which may or may not be available), and dealing with random events in your gang's territory.
Now this is certainly not an RPG in the conventional sense, as it lacks absolute freedom unless you are willing to negotiate new rules with the other players in the campaign, but there are certainly RPG elements as I understand them.
What I'm wondering is (outside of my own limited experiences) how satisfying are games like this in the long term? What advantages and disadvantages do they have over true RPGs?
Sure they can scratch an itch, perhaps not the same itch you'd scratch from playing some other game, role playing and otherwise, but it can be enjoyable, kind of like HeroQuest, Descent and other similar board-game dungeon crawlers can be fun in their own right. As to the actual role playing element involved, well that's really up to the participants and the way the scenarios are constructed by the group before hand, isn't it? You can play HeroQuest as an RPG in my mind, so you might be able to do the same with something like Necromunda, or 40K etc for that matter.
It depends on what you and your crew define as RPGs.
For my crew, we found that Arkham Horror, Space Hulk and Warhammer Quest were fabulous substitutes for RPG night when we didn't have enough players or the GM wasn't prepped. But we were one of those groups that enjoyed "being in character" in any game where we got a character, regardless if it was a minis or board game.
Necromunda is an awesome game and I have run it as a RPG using Savage Worlds. Also, if you like small unit skirmish but want fantasy, I highly recommend Mordheim.
Don't much care for them, they seem to surgically remove all of the best bits of RPGs. But maybe that's playing DungeonQuest over ten times in the last week with my son talking...
I recall GW were doing something similar with Chaos warbands at one stage, there was a good article in White Dwarf chronicling a daemon prince's rise to power. They're basically skirmish minis games though, nothing to do with RPGs.
I'm all for them. Some of my favorites are stuff from Two Hour Wargames and Goal System Delves.
I played GorkaMorka, so MORK MORK MORK! A game with mad rules, like you couldn't change the crews of your vehicles unless they HAD A FIGHT and the new guy won, and that your boss got an extra Ld point after their first victory because, up to then, nobody really trusted them anyway. And if anyone else got as much Ld, they HAD A FIGHT to see who got to be da boss now.
Totally not RPG's, but they've got the persistence elements, you really get involved in your team as they develop and you find out what they're actually made of, and you feel for your guys when they take serious injuries or die. Brilliant campaign systems, even if hilariously broken.
For me they aren't for a simple reason - I go maybe not into full competitive mode, but 90% competitive mode when playing such games. In RPGs, I'll take a suboptimal decision for story or theme reason. In such games, I try not to.
Quote from: Rincewind1;726243For me they aren't for a simple reason - I go maybe not into full competitive mode, but 90% competitive mode when playing such games. In RPGs, I'll take a suboptimal decision for story or theme reason. In such games, I try not to.
They're still war games. You should still play to win.
Unpredictable advancement throws up all sorts of unexpected tactical opportunities. That's fun.
I find those kinds of games great fun, and for me its the other side of my love for the RPG hobby made manifest. To this day I still think of RpGs and Wargames as two sides of the same coin. In both games I interact with rules and immerse in an imaginary situation, but each is heightened to a different degree in the two activities. But both are built on that same framework of "interacting with the imagination".
Which is why I like my RPGs lite and my wargames crunchier rhan a Snickers bar. I love WHF 3rd and with its awesome eules for supply wagons and playing capture the flag with warbanners , and I look at rulesets like Kreigspiel and Diplomacy and think of ways to make the game more complex, for the rules to model more and more situations that enhance the level of tactics brought to the table. And then I GM my rpgs using a variation of FASERiP not much more crunchy than Risus.
Quote from: RunningLaser;726233I'm all for them. Some of my favorites are stuff from Two Hour Wargames...
This! FNG was the first game to come to mind when reading the OP.
I'm also plotting a way to integrate Risus with the Ganesha games wargames like Flying Lead - it's a sort of peanut-butter-in-my-chocolate kind of thing.
I have always thought skirmish lever wargames lenses themselves well to Rpg type campaigns. I have always wanted to do a skirmish campaign that chronicles small actions leading up to a rather large one, I have always pictured doing this with a GM to provide sort of an element of unknown. I known games like Laserburn can be used as an rpg system and the 1st edition of WFB had rules for dungeon battles and running it as an rpg. Speaking of that any one ever run the rpg system in WFB 1st?
I really fancy mixing miniature games (especially those with floorplans) with light but distinct rpg-rules.
Adding simple rpg-skills to wargames is easily doable, and if one take one squad, and let players play as one soldier each ... well, there you have it.
The Rogue Trader edition of WH:40k (2nd?) felt a lot like this. There was a significant push in sections for players to have their specific personalities playing through scenarios with short range tactical goals.
It is a wargame that borders on being a board game. Not an RPG or even a pseudo RPG. Though you could easily plug it into Rogue Trader I'd think.
As a wargame/board game though I actually like it more than Warhammer 40k by a long long margin indeed. This was one of the games that the GW staff would preview to me often at conventions because for some reason they really liked my stuff. No clue why.
But next to Warhammer Quest, Necromunda seemed to be one they personally enjoyed playing along with Blood Bowl.
Too bad the PC version of Necromunda never saw light.
Does it satisfy like an RPG? Not even remotely. Does Clue/do satisfy like an RPG? No.
That is my viewpoint on it. Fun game. Not an RPG or even RPG-esque.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;726321The Rogue Trader edition of WH:40k (2nd?) felt a lot like this. There was a significant push in sections for players to have their specific personalities playing through scenarios with short range tactical goals.
I'm pretty sure Rogue Trader(the Original) was 1'st edition WH40K.
:)
Was just looking at the new Judge Dredd miniatures game which seem to have many of the aspects of Necromunda: character advancement, money used to buy goods, random scenarios. I actually prefer the simplified combat systems from these games to 90% of RPG combat. The combat system from WFB (to hit based on skill, separate armor saves) is so much better than the one from WFRP that it drives me crazy. Even supposedly rules-light RPGs tend to way over complicate combat.
Quote from: Arkansan;726316Speaking of that any one ever run the rpg system in WFB 1st?
I've never played the WFB v1 rpg rules but I do remember looking it over and feeling that large portions of it were incomplete especially regarding how magic users work.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;726136What I'm wondering is (outside of my own limited experiences) how satisfying are games like this in the long term? What advantages and disadvantages do they have over true RPGs?
Never played
Necromunda, but we had a
Blood Bowl league and a Star Fleet Battles roster going when I was in the Navy. Neither were RPGs, but they were fun for quite awhile as long as you had different teams and factions coming in for games.
The big advantage and disadvantage to this was that every game had to be self-contained so that while you could continue on, you didn't necessarily have to. There were some long stretches between games because of ship deployment, so it could be months or in one memorable case a year and a half between
Blood Bowl teams or SFB squadrons being used.
I love Necromunda, especially from my brief play time, but particularly in theory. See, I love turn based strat/tactics games like Shining Force, Langrisser, Battle for Westnoth, etc. And I also understand that, though the engine predominantly focuses on TBS combat, you can completely add all that exploration and social interaction you want from an RPG. But I also understood that it could be a combat time sink if needlessly complicated.
So in theory I should have been one of the biggest 4e supporters around. It should scratch all my itches -- except the execution falls into the complexity trap: too-long combats, poor exploration and social interaction integration, overly complex and integrated mechanics, low flexibility engine, etc. I'm now dancing with the idea (since I don't own a copy of Necromunda myself, nor have it as high priority on my used games search) with looking at Warmachine and character development, or maybe check out Malefeux.
For me the current big goals to work on is: KISS combat mechanics, placement issues during explore and social scenes, and how to maintain fog of war. Shining Force is my touchstone for KISS mechanics, a basic attack, a base range, and resource pools hovering close to single digits. Placement issues bugs because I don't want to bog exploration and social with elaborate movement and line of sight rules. Fog of war doesn't bother me as much because I have more than one technique bouncing in my head to deal with that.
Oh, I know it won't be as freeform as an RPG; structure necessitates boundaries, so more structure, more boundaries. But I also now know that what I am trying to achieve is very borderline from the broad RPG experience, too. So what I seek is a niche of a niche of a niche, and well, that makes the pool of interested players/victims for my ideas small indeed.
I love THW stuff. I have 5150 and the chain reaction system really floats my boat.
Having stats and a continued campaign for characters in it? Not so much. The same way I never really worried about mech pilot stats in Battletech beyond what is absolutely necessary.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;726136First, forgive me if I use terms inaccurately, this isn't an area of tabletop I've had much experience with.
For those who are unfamiliar, Necromunda was a game by the Games Workshop where each player put together a gang of gunslingers and then competes with others for resources in a dystopian hive-city's lower depths. While the game can be played as one-off clashes, it really shines when you play it in campaign mode, where you have to roll after each clash to see who lives, who dies, who limps away with permanent injuries, who learns new skills, etc. You also get to make choices in hiring new gang members, purchasing equipment (which may or may not be available), and dealing with random events in your gang's territory.
Now this is certainly not an RPG in the conventional sense, as it lacks absolute freedom unless you are willing to negotiate new rules with the other players in the campaign, but there are certainly RPG elements as I understand them.
What I'm wondering is (outside of my own limited experiences) how satisfying are games like this in the long term? What advantages and disadvantages do they have over true RPGs?
It's called a "wargame campaign," and people have been doing them for decades and they're wonderful fun.
My FIRST one was as part of a US armor division that went from landing on Omaha Beach to hitting the Rhine.
* reads rest of thread *
Crom's hairy nutsack, are people really that fucking ignorant about wargames?
I'd say not exactly scratch the RPG itch, but I think games like Necromunda are way more fun approached from the RPG side as opposed to the strictly gaming side. Dogface charging Korbitz the Mutilator because he capped Jonny Darkside back when him and Dogface were just Juves coming up together is good stuff. Having a Juve eventually make it to being Leader of a gang gives the game a great immersive context.
I suggest going and getting all the expanded rules from the magazines. Crazy good fun, but not if you're expecting a balanced wargame.
Quote from: Old Geezer;726391* reads rest of thread *
Crom's hairy nutsack, are people really that fucking ignorant about wargames?
Yes.
Quote from: Old Geezer;726390It's called a "wargame campaign," and people have been doing them for decades and they're wonderful fun.
My FIRST one was as part of a US armor division that went from landing on Omaha Beach to hitting the Rhine.
Quote from: Old Geezer;726391* reads rest of thread *
Crom's hairy nutsack, are people really that fucking ignorant about wargames?
Yes.
I think it has to do with todays prevalence of Miniatures gaming. Most Minis gaming has for the most part removed the campaign game aspect of Wargames. Most minis games now are just beating each other up and whoever tables their opponent first is the winner... The grander scale of wargaming is almost non-existant.
Which is sad... Those games like Necromunda, Mordheim, and Gorka-Morka are all but gone now... I don't think I've seen any of the big minis gaming companies even support campaign play anymore...
Personally, I see Minis games and War Games as two distinct genres. But I wish more Minis games would go back to their War Gaming roots IMHO. They've lost a lot over the years...
1st edition Space Hulk and I believe 2nd edition Space Hulk both refer to themselves as "Role Playing Games"; the 3rd edition doesn't.
The Two Hour Wargames I've played mostly was All Things Zombie and it had a pretty good campaign system from what I remember, or at least very usable. Most of their add ons for ATZ look to be expanding your campaign.
Goalsystem Delves also has a section of the book dedicated to playing an extended campaign. With sections on buying and selling loot, doing holy works, library research, running a criminal enterprise, mercenary work and a few other things. By no means are these parts rules dense, but they are there. Also, it's a level based game, so you have your standard character advancement. It's a really cool game.
Most of the Minis gamers around here don't play campaigns it's typically just throw some figures on the table and battle it out with no particular rhyme or reason.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;726406Yes.
I think it has to do with todays prevalence of Miniatures gaming. Most Minis gaming has for the most part removed the campaign game aspect of Wargames. Most minis games now are just beating each other up and whoever tables their opponent first is the winner... The grander scale of wargaming is almost non-existant.
Which is sad... Those games like Necromunda, Mordheim, and Gorka-Morka are all but gone now... I don't think I've seen any of the big minis gaming companies even support campaign play anymore...
Personally, I see Minis games and War Games as two distinct genres. But I wish more Minis games would go back to their War Gaming roots IMHO. They've lost a lot over the years...
That's pretty much what I was talking about regarding Warhammer Fantasy 3rd, which was contemporary of the first Rogue Trader and the last time the game used a GM. GW's Ancient Battles from years back seems to have been the last breath of this system, but even it only had the most basic of campaign rules.
Playing wargames Ive often found that I understand why D&D was originally called a wargame, and I can in retrospect see where RPGs were born.
Ive often wanted to experiment with this edge to see how far a wargame can be pushed until its an RPG.
Quote from: TristramEvans;726421Ive often wanted to experiment with this edge to see how far a wargame can be pushed until its an RPG.
Me too, I think it would be an interesting experiment as well as fun gaming. I have always wanted to do a wargaming campaign with a GM where players also had character generals.
I was involved in a large Mordheim campaign that lasted several months (probably 10 players each with their own warband). It is one of the funnest experiences I've had in gaming. I had Beastmen, and did pretty well. I remember Sisters of Sigmar, a Vampire warband, several Empire warbands, an Orc warband, a Tilean warband, and a skaven warband all in the campaign.
Quote from: TristramEvans;726421That's pretty much what I was talking about regarding Warhammer Fantasy 3rd, which was contemporary of the first Rogue Trader and the last time the game used a GM. GW's Ancient Battles from years back seems to have been the last breath of this system, but even it only had the most basic of campaign rules.
Playing wargames Ive often found that I understand why D&D was originally called a wargame, and I can in retrospect see where RPGs were born.
Ive often wanted to experiment with this edge to see how far a wargame can be pushed until its an RPG.
Most of the best games I've ever played were Rogue Trader or Warhammer Fantasy 3e... Once 40k 2e and WHFB 4e came out with the campaign rules stripped out... The games just weren't as fun anymore...That's why I played so much Necromunda and later Mordheim as they kept a lot of the campaign rules (if simpler) from the earlier editions. Even though I still play 40k and WFB (6e and 8e respectively), they are completely different games.
Quote from: danbuter;726425I was involved in a large Mordheim campaign that lasted several months (probably 10 players each with their own warband). It is one of the funnest experiences I've had in gaming. I had Beastmen, and did pretty well. I remember Sisters of Sigmar, a Vampire warband, several Empire warbands, an Orc warband, a Tilean warband, and a skaven warband all in the campaign.
I loved my Sisters of Sigmar... I wish I still had those miniatures... But my warband got stolen...
I was in a campaign that had 21 players and lasted 4.5 months. It was a spectacular event in my time as a minis gamer. I came in 5th over all, and it sucks on such a low note having the game bag the warband was in being stolen out of my car...
I still have my Orlock Gangers for Necromunda. which was probably one of the best minis campaigns I've ever done. I came in second, losing to one of the best in our group of 30 players. We had probably 10-15 people watching the final game. Only time I've ever been in the spotlight like that. Was pretty awesome. I lost mainly due to really craptastic rolls, but it was probably one of the best games I've ever played.
Now I want to play Necromunda again...
Quote from: TristramEvans;726421Ive often wanted to experiment with this edge to see how far a wargame can be pushed until its an RPG.
Where do you draw the line?
Last year at GaryCon I was playing Tractics. I commanded 1 Russian tank. My platoon leader came under fire and buttoned up so I could no longer see his signal flags. I had no radio.
The referee asked me "What do you do?" Wargame? RPG?
MY personal answer is "Mu."
Quote from: Old Geezer;726448Where do you draw the line?
Im not certain exactly. Small party skirmish missions as part of a larger campain come very close to the divide.
QuoteLast year at GaryCon I was playing Tractics. I commanded 1 Russian tank. My platoon leader came under fire and buttoned up so I could no longer see his signal flags. I had no radio.
The referee asked me "What do you do?" Wargame? RPG?
MY personal answer is "Mu."
Yeah, I dont know that it matters per se, its only interesting to me insofar as how seperately the hobbies have grown and sometimes I think going back to the roots helps me take games in different directions. Also puts into perspective the role of a GM.
Currently Im in the middle of constructing a waterfront Mordheim town from Polyeurethene, wood, and various terrain bits. After its finished Im going to attempt a Skaven burrow: multilayers, based visually on The Secret of NIMH, and then over the next year a mounttain Dwarven stronghold and a Forest elven kingdom. When they're all done Im going to be running a massive campaign combining wargame and rpg elements, with each player as the monarch of kingdom.
Quote from: Old Geezer;726448Where do you draw the line?
Last year at GaryCon I was playing Tractics. I commanded 1 Russian tank. My platoon leader came under fire and buttoned up so I could no longer see his signal flags. I had no radio.
The referee asked me "What do you do?" Wargame? RPG?
MY personal answer is "Mu."
Storygame obviously.