Quote from: RPGPundit;874722Does it really matter if it's all those traits in ONE person or that there are many people who have one or more of those traits in the hobby?!!

Yeah, you can fuck right off with that ignorant bigotry.

Quote from: TristramEvans;874734If I could game only with players on the autistic spectrum I would.

Why do you say that?

Yup, it's a shame that rude and obnoxious people are allowed into the hobby.  There ought to be a screening procedure or something.  Or you know, we could all learn some tolerance.  Nah!

Come on Pundit I can tell from your avatar that you're a handsome middle aged man with a sweet mustache so you're in the clear but that's no reason to be so dismissive of your fellow roleplayer.  RPGs aren't exclusively played by spokesmodels I think that isn't so hard to accept.

Quote from: RPGPundit;874222It is based on people I have seen in the north american roleplaying scene (and a couple here too, I don't want to suggest that the Uruguayan RPG scene is totally devoid of socially-retarded willfully disgusting nerds), including people I had played with at cons or my old University club.

This describes my biased experience too. I've run games at lots of cons, and played with lots of folks at my gaming table. I've had more than a few that matched that description... oddly, one of them, the perviest fucking weirdo of them all, a mouth-breathing cliche of the dungeon-dwelling, greasy-skinned, fat-Weird-Al clone, ended up working for one of my favorite game-studios at the time, after I booted his ass out of my group for trying to proposition one the other players... ugh.

yeah I don't have much tolerance for those folks at my table. Which fortunately for me, I'm comfortable telling anyone I don't owe them a spot in my games, anyone that says otherwise is pretty much full of crap.

Quote from: David Johansen;874737Or you know, we could all learn some tolerance.  Nah!

There are some sorts of behavior that people should not be obliged to tolerate.

The RPG hobby lost most of the Catpissmen when WoW arrived. Most of the total freaks found it easier to stay home in their stink where nobody gives them a hard time.

Also, what's with the ragging on autistic gamers?

I've met a few and all were good dudes who put real effort into trying to do their best as players in spite of their disability. Considering how easy it would be for an autistic gamer to vanish to online games, I really respect those who push themselves to game in public.

Quote from: RPGPundit;874721Hmm, I hadn't noticed you were from Bulgaria.  It is likely different there than in north america (just like it's different in Uruguay).  Let me assure you that in the U.S. and Canada we have several people fitting one or combinations of all of those in the Roleplaying scene.

Well, I'll take your word for it - since I haven't been to the US yet.
(And I'm pretty sure that there are such people in Bulgaria. I'm also quite sure that the reason they don't end up in RPG groups is simple gatekeeping. It's not "the hobby should be only for the best of the best". It's more "nobody in their sane mind would invite someone who's willfully disgusting on a first session". Because if he or she starts playing, you're stuck having to play with someone who doesn't care whether you're disgusted:)!)

Quote from: TristramEvans;874734If I could game only with players on the autistic spectrum I would.

I suspect some of my players are on the spectrum (but I'm not qualified to judge). If it was all of them, though, I'd have a much harder time GMing for them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;874762The RPG hobby lost most of the Catpissmen when WoW arrived. Most of the total freaks found it easier to stay home in their stink where nobody gives them a hard time.

Sounds plausible. And it leads me to saying something I never dreamt I'd say.
"Praise WoW!"

QuoteAlso, what's with the ragging on autistic gamers?

No idea. They can learn to function socially, so it's not an insurmontable issue - in fact, many of those I suspected being on the spectrum showed some improvement.

To me, it's the "willfully disgusting" part that would be the greatest obstacle with the archetype Pundit presented;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;874722Does it really matter if it's all those traits in ONE person or that there are many people who have one or more of those traits in the hobby?!!

I only mind fat people if they break my chairs. The only thing I don't like is players with bad hygiene, and these are extremely rare IME. You seem to think the USA is full of gross players but I am doubtful.

Quote from: Spinachcat;874762Also, what's with the ragging on autistic gamers?  

I'm pretty sure that they don't mean actual autistic people (I don't know if that makes it better or worse). I think it's the stereotypical gamer who is socially stunted and clueless (particularly with regards to annoying others). It's part and parcel with the nerd-gamer stereotype along with mouth-breather, fat, greasy, pervy, basement dwelling, fedora and flames/oriental dragon shirt, etc. etc. that may or may not ever come together in real life. It's not a healthy stereotype (and not one I like seeing associated more with American gamers). However, we've all known that guy-- the one that you say, "that's where the stereotype comes from."

One of the things I like about this hobby, that really made it a great place for me growing up, was there was a tolerance of people who were awkward, nerdy, and a little strange. Sometimes I feel like we are losing that in the internet age, where we're suddenly expecting gamers to act like jocks or something. My feeling here is there are two kinds of strange. There are people who are genuinely toxic that are mean, rude, etc. That sort of behavior I've never really tolerated at my game table. I just don't want to spend time with someone who insults me all the time. But most gamers I've played with are quirky to some degree (whether it is because they'd rather talk about life in Ancient Rome for an hour than talk about the latest sitcom or football game, or because they are shy and not particularly good with words). To me this largely boils down to intent. There is a big difference between someone who unknowingly does things that are a annoying (but is otherwise kind and trying to be nice) and someone who knocks others down to build themselves up or tries to uspset the social dynamics at the table for whatever reason. There is definitely behavior that you have to call out and not accept. But I feel like we are starting to fold a lot into that and the people that are going to be getting the short end of the stick are a lot of well-intentioned, awkward people the hobby has traditionally embraced.

Quote from: TristramEvans;874734If I could game only with players on the autistic spectrum I would.

If it's truly a spectrum, isn't everybody on it somewhere?

Or was that a joke I didn't get?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;874794But I feel like we are starting to fold a lot into that and the people that are going to be getting the short end of the stick are a lot of well-intentioned, awkward people the hobby has traditionally embraced.

Complaining about those unpleasant gamers who blight our hobby (but who are almost always in somebody else's game, but not the complainers game, oh no of course not) has been around forever. Creating a nerd pecking order is one method that insecure nerds use to try to feel better about themselves. Its no different really than what the insecure teenagers known as "the popular kids" did to the not popular kids in whatever middle school or high school you attended. Pundit is just the latest in a long, long line of peckers. Unfortunately the Internet gives him and those like him a winder audience for their pecking. The good news is that mostly, such things have nothing to do with the average game group.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;874791I'm pretty sure that they don't mean actual autistic people (I don't know if that makes it better or worse). I think it's the stereotypical gamer who is socially stunted and clueless (particularly with regards to annoying others). It's part and parcel with the nerd-gamer stereotype along with mouth-breather, fat, greasy, pervy, basement dwelling, fedora and flames/oriental dragon shirt, etc. etc. that may or may not ever come together in real life. It's not a healthy stereotype (and not one I like seeing associated more with American gamers). However, we've all known that guy-- the one that you say, "that's where the stereotype comes from."

I haven't seen that guy, actually, although I've met almost all of these qualities in by themselves - but not together.
That's why I called the RPG Pundit on trying to score cheap points...and he called me on pretending to never have seen it. Except I wasn't pretending:D.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;874794One of the things I like about this hobby, that really made it a great place for me growing up, was there was a tolerance of people who were awkward, nerdy, and a little strange. Sometimes I feel like we are losing that in the internet age, where we're suddenly expecting gamers to act like jocks or something.

I must admit that the "nerd" vs "jock" stereotypes are something I'm actually not used to, but let's leave it at that.

QuoteMy feeling here is there are two kinds of strange. There are people who are genuinely toxic that are mean, rude, etc. That sort of behavior I've never really tolerated at my game table. I just don't want to spend time with someone who insults me all the time.

Well, that's what I assumed Pundit to mean, except with added lack of hygiene and equal lack of decent looks, for emphasis;). And because we were talking about eroticism (which, for some reason, Pundit assumes to mean "descriptive sex". It's the descriptive part that's wrong).

QuoteBut most gamers I've played with are quirky to some degree (whether it is because they'd rather talk about life in Ancient Rome for an hour than talk about the latest sitcom or football game, or because they are shy and not particularly good with words).

Well, pretty much everyone is either quirky to some degree, or boring to the Nth degree.
That's why you get bonus points for quirks in GURPS:p!

QuoteTo me this largely boils down to intent. There is a big difference between someone who unknowingly does things that are a annoying (but is otherwise kind and trying to be nice) and someone who knocks others down to build themselves up or tries to uspset the social dynamics at the table for whatever reason. There is definitely behavior that you have to call out and not accept. But I feel like we are starting to fold a lot into that and the people that are going to be getting the short end of the stick are a lot of well-intentioned, awkward people the hobby has traditionally embraced.

Isn't that more of a societal trend, lately:D?

Quote from: Bren;874802Complaining about those unpleasant gamers who blight our hobby (but who are almost always in somebody else's game, but not the complainers game, oh no of course not) has been around forever. Creating a nerd pecking order is one method that insecure nerds use to try to feel better about themselves..

I never really encountered this sort of thing until the internet. Maybe I was lucky. Personally I think the net tends to accelerate and intensify ideas.

But I do want to be clear with what I am saying. I am not saying any and all behavior is acceptable, or that there isn't a a potential issue with some gamers. I think we've all met that guy or girl who goes beyond the quirks of being geeky, nerdy, awkward etc and is just mean, hostile or abusive to others (and in a group of geeky, awkward, shy people, that individual can often end up not just sticking around, but with a lot of clout). And I make a distinction between being awkward around the opposite sex, and just being plain pervy (and in the gaming community, I have certainly seen the latter at places like game stores). So I am not saying there are not things like this that ought to be addressed in some way. And one thing we've probably all witnessed is people who don't manage their personal hygiene for whatever reason. I would agree with people who say those things are not good for the hobby. But what I am saying is there is an increasing tendency online (and it is everywhere, I don't think it is coming from just one person or group) where we are folding a lot of those awkward and shy people into that category. This is one reason I am not a fan of the whole Geek Social Fallacy thing. It actually states some really common sense points that most people probably ought to understand, but in the hands of gamers and geeks, just like regular fallacies, it seems to get misapplied to everything and almost become a tool for mocking people who are just different. I think we just have a tendency to take things like that to an extreme. It is common sense that if the guy to your right keeps kicking you in the shin, you have the right to tell him to leave. But I see the geek social fallacy list get whipped out because people are just awkward though well intentioned, or as an excuse to have zero empathy for someone (you aren't obligated to play with anyone you don't like, but it also doesn't mean they are no longer human and you should completely ignore their feelings).

I think people don't acknowledge any of these things existing in their own group because it is rude to comment that way on the people you game with in most peoples minds. But I could certainly use myself as an example. There are plenty of gamer stereotypes that don't apply to me, but some fit me like a glove. I don't think we have any egregious offenders in our group, but people can probably sense we are gamers or on the geeky side when they see us chatting together.

Quote from: AsenRG;874805Isn't that more of a societal trend, lately:D?

Probably. But I a spend most of my online time in venues related to gaming, history and media I like so that is what I am measuring. But when I look at the Facebook feeds of people in my family who are not gamers or geeks, I just don't see this stuff coming up at all. But that is a small sampling of people.