In a setting book for a fantasy city, what sort of material are you hoping it will contain?
Districts and their focus (This is the dock ward, so sailors and the like), government system, places of interest, some personages of interest without stats. What type of city is it? Is it a port town? Is it a government town? What's the guild situation like, if there is one, and why or not?
Also, Maps, Maps, Maps! Oh, and did I mention Maps?
Vornheim be thy guide. I know Zak S is a touchy subject for many, but HOT DAMN he wrote a great city book.
The more I can make a fantasy city into MY CITY the more I useful that supplement would be to me.
Vornheim is one of those WTF books for me. Random gibberish tables combined with pretentious artsy crap. So of course it's the darling of the OSR, as it combines two of their favorite things (along with awful art)
Personally, I like listings of shops/buildings, NPCs, local organizations, and such. Random tables might have been useful in the 1970s, but they are no longer a novelty, with dozens of random table books to choose from, some of which are actually meant to produce coherent, at least vaguely realistic results (like the World Builder's Guide from TSR)
Just loads and loads of maps and floorplans with concise, terse descriptions of locations, organisations, inhabitants and any other relevant info.
Quote from: 3rik;1054499Just loads and loads of maps and floorplans with concise, terse descriptions of locations, organisations, inhabitants and any other relevant info.
This. So much this.
Seconding what everyone else said about maps. Good maps are key. After that, lots of locations and fleshed out NPCs. I don't really need or want a hugely detailed background about the history/politics & etc. unless it's pretty directly relevant for play. "City as hexcrawl" is about my speed.
I want a relevant history that is not only a good read, but incorporates and/or expands on elements from the wider setting. Events in the history should not be isolated to the history, but should reverberate throughout the city today and should inform aspects such as the layout of the city, the current political landscape, ongoing mysteries, place names and the current relations with neighbouring towns and cities etc. That is, the history should give reason as to why things are the way they are.
I want details on those vying for power, be it government, religion, or secret societies or just criminal gangs in the streets. As a minimum I want a map of the city. I want detailed locations of note within the city, with smaller location specific maps if possible. I want adventure hooks that are relevant to the section they appear in and perhaps larger adventure frameworks at the back of the book.
I want a GM section to offer advice on the styles of adventures and campaigns possible in the city, from the standard tropes to something a bit more specific to the city itself. If there is nothing unique about the city, why do the player characters even want to be there.
I want to know what lies beyond the city, what enemies lurk just beyond the gates, what adventuring opportunities await over the brow of the next hill. I want to know the city's relations with its neighbours are, who their ambassadors are and vice versa.
I like small snippets of in character narration to add a little flavour to individual chapters, but that a very personal preference. To sum it all up, I'm looking for depth.
NPCs and adventure sites. I have a 5e book Streets of Zobeck that is really good that way, the NPCs are well detailed and brimming with plot hooks, and it has numerous sites detailed that are suitable for adventures. It also has scripted adventures but these are much less useful to me.
Sewer maps that can be used as adventure sites like Dyson Logos' Sewers of Trayvon map - got tons of use from that one map.
A useable city map where I can see the building outlines - again, Dyson Logos does great ones. Paizo does appalling pieces of multi-coloured crap that are completely unuseable (Magnimar & Korvosa are two I own).
I would say the main thing is to hire Dyson/use his maps, then add a bunch of colourful NPCs, detailed adventure sites (abandoned buildings, sewers, crypts, bathhouse, inn, temple etc) with their own maps at dungeoneering scale.
Encounter tables are good too, but keep it simple. One to four tables with say 12-20 entries each is good. DO NOT require a lot of cross-referencing. I find in city play tables are less useful than in a dungeon anyway.
Flying Buffalo's Citybook series is still my go-to of how to do this right.
Quote from: Omega;1054620Flying Buffalo's Citybook series is still my go-to of how to do this right.
I love those books and have used one or two of the shops in my gaming, but you could never detail a city at that level. They might not work well for a sandbox city because you would end up having the wrong establishments detailed out. So basically that kind of detail would work best for a scenario or some of the most important establishments.
Frank
Quote from: Spinachcat;1054487Vornheim be thy guide. I know Zak S is a touchy subject for many, but HOT DAMN he wrote a great city book.
The more I can make a fantasy city into MY CITY the more I useful that supplement would be to me.
I strongly, strongly disagree.
Vornheim does have a few neat things in terms of an osr toolbox book. But as a city guide? It's fucking awful. It's everything not to do when it comes to making a city.
I used to use "Runequest Cities"
https://www.amazon.com/Runequest-Cities-Explore-Fantasy-Communities/dp/9990397562
Many years ago. it has lots of material for encounters in cities, building cities and city management etc.
It can be a lot of fun to use. Particularly the detailed encounter charts, which have all sorts of interesting stuff.
I've since lost my copy of this, although I did manage to buy a Non-Branded PDF from the original creators a few years ago.
Have I mentioned Maps? If I haven't, I want to makes sure that Maps are mentioned.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1054962I strongly, strongly disagree.
Vornheim does have a few neat things in terms of an osr toolbox book. But as a city guide? It's fucking awful. It's everything not to do when it comes to making a city.
Oh, you didn't want an opinion, you just wanted an echo chamber consensus... Sorry, I misunderstood your intent.
For a long time I saw Thieves World from Chaosium as the model of how to do it for publication. I think it is good to recall that a ref should write-up city preparation for their own use very differently than for publication.
Quote from: Kuroth;1055052For a long time I saw Thieves World from Chaosium as the model of how to do it for publication. I think it is good to recall that a ref should write-up city preparation for their own use very differently than for publication.
For me it was Port Blacksand.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1055192For me it was Port Blacksand.
I have that (quite recently) - I really need to read it!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1054487Vornheim be thy guide. I know Zak S is a touchy subject for many, but HOT DAMN he wrote a great city book.
The more I can make a fantasy city into MY CITY the more I useful that supplement would be to me.
Yep. I don't use probably 90% of Vornheim - put the parts I use are gold. Plus there's loads of conceptual density. (http://udan-adan.blogspot.com/2016/11/conceptual-density-or-what-are-rpg.html)
To me the key lesson of Vornheim is be distinctive. Go go completely batshit insane - but if all that's on offer is another generic hive of scum and villiany than I'll pass. I don't want a city that can fit in any campaign - I want a city with character that makes me want to build a campaign around it.
Quote from: S'mon;1054584NPCs and adventure sites. I have a 5e book Streets of Zobeck that is really good that way, the NPCs are well detailed and brimming with plot hooks, and it has numerous sites detailed that are suitable for adventures. It also has scripted adventures but these are much less useful to me.
.
Also very good I think the key lesson from that for me - was the focus on a few key locations. I don't need 4 lines on every building in the city - give me a few important places interesting and well developed enough to get me started straight away and the rest will follow easily enough.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1055192For me it was Port Blacksand.
A classic.
Speaking of City Guides, I hope anyone into Gonzo-fantasy checks out the RPGPundit Presents issues on Arkhome (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/232150/RPGPundit-Presents-16-The-Great-City-of-Arkhome?cPath=126_28809), and Arkhome II (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/234673/RPGPundit-Presents-20-The-Great-City-of-Arkhome-2?cPath=126_28809).
Also, check out in the near future my city guides to Highbay (City of Stoners) and the Highbay Magical Drug Pharmacopoeia.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1055023I used to use "Runequest Cities"
https://www.amazon.com/Runequest-Cities-Explore-Fantasy-Communities/dp/9990397562
Many years ago. it has lots of material for encounters in cities, building cities and city management etc.
It can be a lot of fun to use. Particularly the detailed encounter charts, which have all sorts of interesting stuff.
I've since lost my copy of this, although I did manage to buy a Non-Branded PDF from the original creators a few years ago.
I have an old copy and I love that book. I have used it for loads of other games other than RQ.
My favourite is Lankhmar, the original AD&D setting. Albeit AD&D is all wrong for a lot of it, the rest of the work is probably, IMHO, the best city book ever written.
(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/lankhmarcoaset.jpg)
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1055736I have an old copy and I love that book. I have used it for loads of other games other than RQ.
My favourite is Lankhmar, the original AD&D setting. Albeit AD&D is all wrong for a lot of it, the rest of the work is probably, IMHO, the best city book ever written.
I used to use it mainly with the various incarnations of the Stormbringer/Elric RPGs and also the Hawkmoon RPG and other RQ style Fantasy settings/rules such as Legend/MRQ2.
I also used it for Pathfinder several years ago with limited success.
The encounter charts were fine, but other stuff, not so useful for PF.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1055898I used to use it mainly with the various incarnations of the Stormbringer/Elric RPGs and also the Hawkmoon RPG and other RQ style Fantasy settings/rules such as Legend/MRQ2.
I also used it for Pathfinder several years ago with limited success.
The encounter charts were fine, but other stuff, not so useful for PF.
Yep, me too with Elric! back in the day. I threw in a few CoC spells from Dreamlands expansion too and they really fit for some reason.
I believe there was a MRQ version of Lankhmar and I got a PDF copy somewhere.
Just lately I bought the nice quality hardback Lankhmar setting for Savage Worlds but I have never played SW set in Nehwon.
I wonder...
Mythras/RQ6 would work great, I reckon.
I think it would be quite easy to run a game of Low Fantasy Gaming in Lankhmar.
I have also started collecting the DCC setting bit it is, as of yet, just getting started.
No matter what I use next time, I will still be using that original supplement cos it is the best.:cool:
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1055932Yep, me too with Elric! back in the day. I threw in a few CoC spells from Dreamlands expansion too and they really fit for some reason.
Yeah CoC material works very well with Stormbringer/Elric RPGs. Particularly if you've read the Lovecraft and Moorcock novels.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1055932I believe there was a MRQ version of Lankhmar and I got a PDF copy somewhere.
Just lately I bought the nice quality hardback Lankhmar setting for Savage Worlds but I have never played SW set in Nehwon.
I wonder...
Mythras/RQ6 would work great, I reckon.
I think it would be quite easy to run a game of Low Fantasy Gaming in Lankhmar.
Yeah I remember that Lankhmar supplement, I should have bought it at the time... oh well.
I have played Savage Worlds, Savage Rifts to be specific. I don't really like those sort of modular character point buy systems.
Too easy for those who know the game very well to game the system.
As far as RQ6/Mythras goes. It's too fiddly for my tastes. Combat just takes too long. Although the combat is very realistic.
If I run an RQ system game again, I'd probably use an early edition RQ RPG. It's good enough and moves fast.
So yeah, perhaps RQ2 with Lankhmar and the Citybook would be the way to go. Low powered Lankhmar sounds a lot of fun!
I'm showing my age, but Irilian from the early years of White Dwarf magazine was a foundational example for me. Thieves' World boxed set is also up there as a good example. More recently, I have a lot of fondness for Green Ronin's Freeport.
The Dark is Rising! Yeah, I got Irilian with the best of WD and loved it.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1055736My favourite is Lankhmar, the original AD&D setting. Albeit AD&D is all wrong for a lot of it, the rest of the work is probably, IMHO, the best city book ever written.
(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/lankhmarcoaset.jpg)
I thought it was really very good, and that the rules changes that they did helped craft it to Lankhmar.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1056432I thought it was really very good, and that the rules changes that they did helped craft it to Lankhmar.
I agree. They did their best to make AD&D reflect the genre with what little space they had. I note that Dom's Fantastic Heroes & Witchery has a Black and White magic stsem that may have been inspired by that very set of rules in the magic system.
My first love however, is the street by street district description,s the random housing block designs and all the great tools.
It was way ahead of its time and still is to a certain extent.
1e AD&D Lankhmar was my first high school RPG campaign. Ah, great days. :)
My yardstick for measuring the quality of a city supplement is its capacity to instigate adventures. That's it. If its content leads into action and conflict, it serves its purpose; if it stays in the background or actively inhibits adventuring, it is a failure. Of course, the devil is in the details. There are multiple elements that can produce this quality. For instance...
- Evocative location descriptions brimming with useful detail and adventure hooks. This can be places which serve as adventure sites themselves, or which can be used as the background to running a city adventure. It can be places where you can go shopping or gather information. It can be places where you can spend your money and get into money. It can be places where you can earn money. The king here is still City State of the Invincible Overlord. Earlier this year, Ben L. posted a very interesting blog post (http://maziriansgarden.blogspot.com/2018/04/city-state-of-world-emperor-lessons.html) on why the City State of the World emperor does not work as well as the CSIO - very much worth reading.
- Procedural support directly used to run an adventure. Encounter charts are obvious (and here, the great, sadly OOP City Encounters by Matt Finch deserves a shout-out, although the CSIO is not too shabby either). Inspiration charts are excellent, particularly those which give you mini-adventures. Simple but robust subsystems for gamifying street chases, chariot races, gambling and illegal trade are great too. I really like Towers of Krshal (http://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2016/08/review-towers-of-krshal.html), a city supplement built entirely from random tables (the sequel, Legends of Krshal (https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2017/06/review-legends-of-krshal.html) is less intense, but also worth getting).
- Maps. A great map is tremendously helpful in actually running a city campaign. It should be varied, give ideas to both the GM (in designing adventures) and the players (in coming up with heists and approaches to achieve their objectives). Unsurprisingly, CSIO had a great map; Port Blacksand (http://fightingfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Port_Blacksand) is brimming with adventure opportunities, and so does TSR's Lankhmar. Fewer people know about M.A.R. Barker's complex and evocative maps of Tékumel cities (http://www.tekumel.com/blueroom_picsmaps.html), apparently done in MSPaint!
- Interesting interest groups you can join, fight, or give a wide berth to. Conspiracies to unearth and rivalries to leverage during your adventures.
- Mood: The last one, this is kinda tricky. Some cities have an indescribable quality which makes them interesting to visit and engage with. Others are flat in spite of a ton of detail (I am looking at TSR's City of Greyhawk here). There is good background detail which does not truly enter play but informs it, and this can be very useful to make a city come alive... if it is done well. There is no precise recipe, but it either works, or it doesn't
Quote from: Melan;1056460Earlier this year, Ben L. posted a very interesting blog post (http://maziriansgarden.blogspot.com/2018/04/city-state-of-world-emperor-lessons.html) on why the City State of the World emperor does not work as well as the CSIO - very much worth reading.
Great link, thanks. But personally I could never really get the CSIO to work well for me either - maybe because I was using the 3e Necromancer Games version, which does quite a few things to muck with the original such as putting the rumours in a single table instead of allocated, squeezing the map too small, and not using street by street indexing (also no
Women table!) :p
I loved playing the
Fighting Fantasy gamebooks City of Thieves (the basis of Blacksand) and Khare: Cityport of Traps, but I've never seen that city-crawl format successfully replicated in an RPG. I think it should be possible to do that with CSIO - but I don't feel I know how. My CSIO gaming has been much more conventional, by and large, 'mission of the week' type stuff.
I agree that 2e Greyhawk feels bland, even though it has tons of gameable content. I did get a lot of use from it back in the early '90s, especially the 1-page adventure cards.
I got a lot of use from Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh; although the city itself is less detailed than the surrounding 1-mile hexcrawl. Maybe I was feeling inspired more than usual, but IMC it became a sort of 18th century London meets 1950s London - Moll Flanders meets St Trinians - lots of noble politicking, romance and intrigue/social climbing. But I was adding tons on to a fairly blank patina; the maps; some basic NPC descriptions; and lots of very English-sounding NPC names.
All this talk of the Lankhmar supplement reminds me i DID actually own it many years ago.
I even ran it for a bit. i remember casters were very limited and had extended casting times etc.
Of course i lost my copy in one of my many moves...
However I just found a copy on ebay and bought it lol. Will be nice to look back on old memories
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1056448I agree. They did their best to make AD&D reflect the genre with what little space they had. I note that Dom's Fantastic Heroes & Witchery has a Black and White magic stsem that may have been inspired by that very set of rules in the magic system.
My first love however, is the street by street district description,s the random housing block designs and all the great tools.
It was way ahead of its time and still is to a certain extent.
Yes it was.
I don't know if FH&W was inspired by Lankhmar or if Dominique Crouzet thought it up himself. It's an interesting question.