Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:

1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z


I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.

Professor Dungeon Master clearly states they are friends in his video where he shills reviews DC20.

$65 is too expensive.

It's not B/X, it's a mix of 5e with Microlite with heaps of extra complexity on top.

I had never heard of the developer before.

The promotion by his youtube friends seems to be working, good for him.

If I wanted a complex system I would choose something else, for instance Hero/GURPS.

I was a patron of Dungeon Coach for a short while. Dude used to be a high school math teacher and basketball coach, hence the affinity for fiddly math and the enthusiastic demeanor. It's not a put on - that's just how he is. Never, ever claimed or wanted to be OSR or rules light. In fact he'd tell you straight up that his game is inspired by 5e and Pathfinder 2.0 with his own homebrew mixed in. Seems to be a decent human. Happy to see him succeed. But his game is not really in my wheelhouse.

Quote from: Festus on June 14, 2024, 03:54:44 PMI was a patron of Dungeon Coach for a short while. Dude used to be a high school math teacher and basketball coach, hence the affinity for fiddly math and the enthusiastic demeanor. It's not a put on - that's just how he is. Never, ever claimed or wanted to be OSR or rules light. In fact he'd tell you straight up that his game is inspired by 5e and Pathfinder 2.0 with his own homebrew mixed in. Seems to be a decent human. Happy to see him succeed. But his game is not really in my wheelhouse.

Yeah i had a conversation with him before a few years back and he's a nice enough dude i recall, but i don't like his game design at all.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 14, 2024, 12:38:36 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:

1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z


I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.

Professor Dungeon Master clearly states they are friends in his video where he shills reviews DC20.

$65 is too expensive.

It's not B/X, it's a mix of 5e with Microlite with heaps of extra complexity on top.

I had never heard of the developer before.

The promotion by his youtube friends seems to be working, good for him.

If I wanted a complex system I would choose something else, for instance Hero/GURPS.

Thank you for proving my point.

Yeah, I'm happy for his success on kickstarter, but I'm not his target audience. 

He asked for $20,000, but got 1.4 MILLION dollars, and the kickstarter still has two weeks and change left to go. 

He must be doing something right. 

It's just that I like easy to pickup and play RPGs right now.  PDFs less than $10, or even $5, often free. And page counts at 50 to 100 or so.

1.  Kogarashi
2.  Pocket Fantasy
3.  Star Adventurer (thank Pundit for writing it)
4.  Mini-Six Bare Bones. 
5.  Tiny-D6 Supers

Even Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool is 200 pages, but it's written for kids, so it's easy to play.

Basing a game on Pathfinder is not a selling point to me.  That game is bloated and a pain.  I am truly floored that it ever became popular.

Yet, I'm still mildly interested in DC20.  It's just curiosity, though.  I can't see ever playing it. 

Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:

1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z


I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.

So your point is that there is a high bar for people to switch RPGs and continue to play them, and most new RPGs don't exceed that bar due to a combination of the items on your list?  We agree.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 15, 2024, 04:57:47 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:

1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z


I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.

So your point is that there is a high bar for people to switch RPGs and continue to play them, and most new RPGs don't exceed that bar due to a combination of the items on your list?  We agree.

No, his point is people shouldn't say WHY they won't switch to X RPG or that they won't AT ALL.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 15, 2024, 06:06:52 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 15, 2024, 04:57:47 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:

1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z


I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.

So your point is that there is a high bar for people to switch RPGs and continue to play them, and most new RPGs don't exceed that bar due to a combination of the items on your list?  We agree.

No, his point is people shouldn't say WHY they won't switch to X RPG or that they won't AT ALL.

I know.  I'm just trying to get something useful out of his whining and shilling...

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3.  Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number.  Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.

i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.

The GM of my home group has decided to back the kickstarter, which means that we'll probably playtest DC20 some time after the beta is released. I'm neutral with regards to the system and mildly curious as to how the playtest will turn out.

I hadn't meant to mention it... But what's with all the extra fiddly shit??

I checked out a few vids after hearing all the hype. The last thing I want is anything more complex and 'tactical' then an OSR.

Plus, they were having a bath with the price of those books. lol

Meh...

Quote from: Aglondir on June 16, 2024, 01:04:35 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3.  Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number.  Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.

i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.

Tried it with my own system. The biggest problem is the little bit of extra complexity slows things down way more the benefit it adds.

Specifically, you're adding a subtraction function which requires knowing the target's defense number (subtract defense number from attack number) in addition to the usual damage math (replacing adding up the dice rolled and modifiers with base + result of subtraction operation).

It basically means you can't roll your hit and damage at the same time or roll a bit ahead to speed up calculations (common practice with a lot of tables I play at is to start rolling your attacks as the previous player is wrapping up since conditions are now known enough to choose your action(s) so when your turn comes up you can say "I attack X with [attack roll result] for [damage roll result]" repeated for as many attacks as you have... this knocks through most player turns in 10-20 seconds depending on if there's anything extra with their attacks).

You could achieve similar results for rolling ahead if you knew defense numbers outright, but not all GMs are comfortable with that.

Personally, I had better results with fixed damage and increasing the number of attacks so that the variable became how many of them landed.

In theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 14, 2024, 08:42:24 AMI've also come to prefer rules lite. We don't need statistics for chickens and housecats that, due to how damage works, can kill grown men in combat.

This post is hilarious, but so true!!!

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 16, 2024, 01:04:35 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3.  Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number.  Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.

i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.

Specifically, you're adding a subtraction function which requires knowing the target's defense number (subtract defense number from attack number) in addition to the usual damage math (replacing adding up the dice rolled and modifiers with base + result of subtraction operation).

Good point.

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AMPersonally, I had better results with fixed damage and increasing the number of attacks so that the variable became how many of them landed.

In theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.

Interesting. I might steal that instead (LOL)

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 15, 2024, 08:39:55 AMBasing a game on Pathfinder is not a selling point to me.  That game is bloated and a pain.  I am truly floored that it ever became popular.   

I think back to the 80s when my group played Space Opera and Harnmaster and complexity didn't phase us. I don't know if it was a gradual build up of complex game after more complex game or if it was just youth and time. Either way I bet the Pathfinder fans are young and/or came from an nearly as complex game.

I'm curious if the bulk of the rules-light fans are lapsed gamers returning to the table top with no tolerance for time wasting nonsense anymore.