DC20 by the Dungeon Coach.
It is a fantasy game, with these features.
1. Four attributes. Strength, Agility, Intelligence, and Charisma.
2. Any of the four attributes can be your primary attribute, and helps you do your class's main thing. If you want to be a Charismatic Fighter, go for it. You just RP that your fighter is good at shit-talking and making the other guy flub their attacks, or drop their defenses so you can hit them back.
3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
4. Fighting type characters have stamina points to power their super moves. Not a lot, though, like 1-5, starting with 1.
5. Magic users use Mana points, not spell slots. You can even pump more mana into a spell to make it do more (so will beating the target number by a lot, just like a fighter's sword attack).
6. You get 4 action points per round. If you spam the same move, each one gets disadvantage. AKA, your 4th attack in a row means you roll 4D20, take the lowest result.
7. Combo moves with other players is a common thing, and can be done when it is NOT your turn. Want to boost your buddy's attack by launching him in a leap off of your shield? Do it. It costs you one of your action 4 action points.
8. When you level up you can take abilities from any of the other classes rather than just stick to your own. This is how you customize your characters. I think it does cost you more to do so.
Overall DC20 has been described as a halfway point between 5E and Pathfinder 2E.
It sounds good to me, and has been popping up in my YouTube feed a lot lately. I like what I see.
I think 5E is needlessly complex and everything I've heard about this one is that it's even more so.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 13, 2024, 07:51:10 PMI think 5E is needlessly complex and everything I've heard about this one is that it's even more so.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, Ruprecht, I agree. After playing RPG's for decades now--I used to *love* complex, highly-detailed, fiddly systems. I loved Rolemaster, and also 3E D&D.
However, as I've mentioned in the past, oftentimes the deeper, harder problems of such systems don't really become visible until characters are 8th, 10th, 12th level, or higher. After wrestling with various such issues, I have reached a place, if you will, where I really appreciate simpler, quick, and brutal systems. I like having room in the engine to periodically *add* some widget of my own--but the foundation of the system is simple, quick, and brutal. That is why I gravitated to Shadowdark. Early 5E started out on the right foot, but increasingly became a mess.
So, yeah. DC 20 just seems like a new game system that is leaning *more* into complexity, and fiddly details. I'm not interested.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's populating my youtube and blog feeds with hyperbolic statements about how it's a "5th Edition Killer" which means it's probably total hog-swill
Interesting.
I am also drawn more to Rules Lite games than 300+ page/phonebook sized rulebooks that have the classic meme of, "We have a rule for that."
I didn't want to color anyone's approach to how they respond. If you like it, say so and why. If you don't like it, say so and why.
Personally, I like the idea of DC20 game. It has a lot of features that I like.
But, will I buy it?
Right now, probably not.
First, I don't know anybody who would want to play it.
Second, when I do TTRPG with people in person, it HAS to be a rules lite game so I can teach it to them on the spot. It is one of the reasons why the Tiny-D6 series is one of my favorites at the moment. The same rules can be used to play multiple genres, and are easy to teach to even kids. With one caveat. The Tiny-D6 fantasy game is their worst game, and the only one I recommend that people NOT get. Pocket Fantasy is a better Rules Lite RPG for the fantasy genre.
Third, I don't need another fantasy game. I've literally have over a dozen I like and would play, and probably 50 that I just own PDF's of so I can read about it so I can talk to other people who like it.
But, like I said, I like the idea of DC20 because it does have a list of great features. If it turns out to be a massive page count, then I'll pass no matter what.
I like having strength be good for fighters and intelligence be good for casters.
I like having 6 stats that means if I want to give my player broach of wisdom, its +2 to wisdom not +2 to wisdom and +2 to intelligence which how the stats being combined works in DC20. I can give my players more stats based loots and not have to worry as much on unintended consequences
Doing 1 for damage as base and increasing damage is probably OK, but its giving me the feeling that weapons are going to be very samey. Sure they will put in reach and maybe even a critical hit modifier. But having to rely on how well you roll for how high of damage and a three would be high damage, not my cup of tea. I do understand they are simplifying maths, but for those of us using VTT's oh my fucking god the feeling you get when you crit as a half orc barbarian and you see all those little damage dice go a flying and you get a 63 feels better than rolling a 4, wow a 4 for damage.
I'm liking Castles and Crusades personally from a good enough category for everything. I'm using 5E now, but it does wear on one over time as the DM having to do all the damn rulings. I personally look at RPGS as:
D&D Basic: OSR
AD&D: DCC, C&C
3E+: 5E, Pathfinder
I think $65 is more than I want to pay for a Player's Handbook that I am not going to get for a full year.
Also, I am kind of done paying for digital content that isn't optimized for its target platform.
This is one of the best videos I've come across regarding the whole "D&D killer" thing. The video not only addresses DC20, but also Shadowdark. The Dungeon Coach also left a comment.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on June 14, 2024, 02:34:45 AMThis is one of the best videos I've come across regarding the whole "D&D killer" thing. The video not only addresses DC20, but also Shadowdark.
Yeah, I think everything in this video is probably correct. The Shadowdark comparison seems apt in terms of the market situation driving DC20's success, and the World of Warcraft comparison is probably bang-on as regards the "D&D killer" trope. I was playing WoW back in its prime, and I remember every new MMO starting the same conversation.
I might look more at DC20 later, but based on Weirdguy's summary, you can add me to the "not interested" list. Usually the phrase "action points" is a bad sign in a TRPG, and it generally seems like the design is taking a lot of influence from computer RPGs. Might be a good game, but that kind of design approach tends to produce a game in which "system mastery" becomes key to the player's success. Honestly I just don't have the time and energy these days to go pouring through a rulebook trying to work out what the optimal build paths and uses of action economy are. I don't even like that shit in videogames anymore.
Optimally, you shouldn't even need to know the rules of a tabletop RPG to make good choices. I prefer a game where you can just do whatever makes sense for your character in the game world, and the rules will have your back.
I've also come to prefer rules lite. We don't need statistics for chickens and housecats that, due to how damage works, can kill grown men in combat.
Let me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
Nah, hard pass. Yet another D&D game sort of like 5E doesn't impress me. 4 stats is moronic.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
Greetings!
Absolutely funny, and totally true, brother!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I got turned off by the carnival barker style promotion by the Dungeon Coach for the project. A little bit of humility goes a long way and he really hasn't shown any in the months that I was subscribed to his channel after the OGL debacle (until very recently when I unsubscribed). He'd for example go on about how his new idea of using any stat for defense was such a revolutionary concept that would redefine how things are done only to drop the turd a few months later with a short mention that using constitution equivalent for dodging was not working out but his new superduper awesome totally rad idea was to use dex equivalent to make you harder to hit instead! OMG, why didn't anyone think of that before!?!? Genius!
THE_Leopold nailed it.
+10
I think #5 is usually my top pick. I am old and therefore dont get why rpg books need endless pages of artwork, which only serve to increase the cost of the rules set.
simple b/w art should suffice, if it doesnt you have a problem.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
Professor Dungeon Master clearly states they are friends in his video where he
shills reviews DC20.
$65 is too expensive.
It's not B/X, it's a mix of 5e with Microlite with heaps of extra complexity on top.
I had never heard of the developer before.
The promotion by his youtube friends seems to be working, good for him.
If I wanted a complex system I would choose something else, for instance Hero/GURPS.
I was a patron of Dungeon Coach for a short while. Dude used to be a high school math teacher and basketball coach, hence the affinity for fiddly math and the enthusiastic demeanor. It's not a put on - that's just how he is. Never, ever claimed or wanted to be OSR or rules light. In fact he'd tell you straight up that his game is inspired by 5e and Pathfinder 2.0 with his own homebrew mixed in. Seems to be a decent human. Happy to see him succeed. But his game is not really in my wheelhouse.
Quote from: Festus on June 14, 2024, 03:54:44 PMI was a patron of Dungeon Coach for a short while. Dude used to be a high school math teacher and basketball coach, hence the affinity for fiddly math and the enthusiastic demeanor. It's not a put on - that's just how he is. Never, ever claimed or wanted to be OSR or rules light. In fact he'd tell you straight up that his game is inspired by 5e and Pathfinder 2.0 with his own homebrew mixed in. Seems to be a decent human. Happy to see him succeed. But his game is not really in my wheelhouse.
Yeah i had a conversation with him before a few years back and he's a nice enough dude i recall, but i don't like his game design at all.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 14, 2024, 12:38:36 PMQuote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
Professor Dungeon Master clearly states they are friends in his video where he shills reviews DC20.
$65 is too expensive.
It's not B/X, it's a mix of 5e with Microlite with heaps of extra complexity on top.
I had never heard of the developer before.
The promotion by his youtube friends seems to be working, good for him.
If I wanted a complex system I would choose something else, for instance Hero/GURPS.
Thank you for proving my point.
Yeah, I'm happy for his success on kickstarter, but I'm not his target audience.
He asked for $20,000, but got 1.4 MILLION dollars, and the kickstarter still has two weeks and change left to go.
He must be doing something right.
It's just that I like easy to pickup and play RPGs right now. PDFs less than $10, or even $5, often free. And page counts at 50 to 100 or so.
1. Kogarashi
2. Pocket Fantasy
3. Star Adventurer (thank Pundit for writing it)
4. Mini-Six Bare Bones.
5. Tiny-D6 Supers
Even Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool is 200 pages, but it's written for kids, so it's easy to play.
Basing a game on Pathfinder is not a selling point to me. That game is bloated and a pain. I am truly floored that it ever became popular.
Yet, I'm still mildly interested in DC20. It's just curiosity, though. I can't see ever playing it.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
So your point is that there is a high bar for people to switch RPGs and continue to play them, and most new RPGs don't exceed that bar due to a combination of the items on your list? We agree.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 15, 2024, 04:57:47 PMQuote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
So your point is that there is a high bar for people to switch RPGs and continue to play them, and most new RPGs don't exceed that bar due to a combination of the items on your list? We agree.
No, his point is people shouldn't say WHY they won't switch to X RPG or that they won't AT ALL.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 15, 2024, 06:06:52 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on June 15, 2024, 04:57:47 PMQuote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2024, 10:06:10 AMLet me get it all out of the way so we can close the thread:
1. There's nothing new in this game
2. This isn't an OSR type product
3. This is just homebrew rules tacked onto B/X
4. This is for 5E players, that's not OSR
5. Books are too expensive, you can do the same thing with B/X for free
6. This is just a hack for another system to which I already have a dozen for that do the same thing
7. The Author is X therefore not buying it.
8. There's no support for this product long term, dead in a year.
9. This isn't compatible with B/X, why do i need to buy another rulebook system and learn it?
10. I hate everything that isn't B/X
11. It's being shilled by X,Y,Z on youtube and social media, these are just paid for reviews/friends of the author/part of Group Z
I think that covers all the bases that will come up here. Let me know if I missed any.
So your point is that there is a high bar for people to switch RPGs and continue to play them, and most new RPGs don't exceed that bar due to a combination of the items on your list? We agree.
No, his point is people shouldn't say WHY they won't switch to X RPG or that they won't AT ALL.
I know. I'm just trying to get something useful out of his whining and shilling...
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.
The GM of my home group has decided to back the kickstarter, which means that we'll probably playtest DC20 some time after the beta is released. I'm neutral with regards to the system and mildly curious as to how the playtest will turn out.
I hadn't meant to mention it... But what's with all the extra fiddly shit??
I checked out a few vids after hearing all the hype. The last thing I want is anything more complex and 'tactical' then an OSR.
Plus, they were having a bath with the price of those books. lol
Meh...
Quote from: Aglondir on June 16, 2024, 01:04:35 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.
Tried it with my own system. The biggest problem is the little bit of extra complexity slows things down way more the benefit it adds.
Specifically, you're adding a subtraction function which requires knowing the target's defense number (subtract defense number from attack number) in addition to the usual damage math (replacing adding up the dice rolled and modifiers with base + result of subtraction operation).
It basically means you can't roll your hit and damage at the same time or roll a bit ahead to speed up calculations (common practice with a lot of tables I play at is to start rolling your attacks as the previous player is wrapping up since conditions are now known enough to choose your action(s) so when your turn comes up you can say "I attack X with [attack roll result] for [damage roll result]" repeated for as many attacks as you have... this knocks through most player turns in 10-20 seconds depending on if there's anything extra with their attacks).
You could achieve similar results for rolling ahead if you knew defense numbers outright, but not all GMs are comfortable with that.
Personally, I had better results with fixed damage and increasing the number of attacks so that the variable became how many of them landed.
In theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 14, 2024, 08:42:24 AMI've also come to prefer rules lite. We don't need statistics for chickens and housecats that, due to how damage works, can kill grown men in combat.
This post is hilarious, but so true!!!
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AMQuote from: Aglondir on June 16, 2024, 01:04:35 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.
Specifically, you're adding a subtraction function which requires knowing the target's defense number (subtract defense number from attack number) in addition to the usual damage math (replacing adding up the dice rolled and modifiers with base + result of subtraction operation).
Good point.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AMPersonally, I had better results with fixed damage and increasing the number of attacks so that the variable became how many of them landed.
In theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.
Interesting. I might steal that instead (LOL)
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 15, 2024, 08:39:55 AMBasing a game on Pathfinder is not a selling point to me. That game is bloated and a pain. I am truly floored that it ever became popular.
I think back to the 80s when my group played Space Opera and Harnmaster and complexity didn't phase us. I don't know if it was a gradual build up of complex game after more complex game or if it was just youth and time. Either way I bet the Pathfinder fans are young and/or came from an nearly as complex game.
I'm curious if the bulk of the rules-light fans are lapsed gamers returning to the table top with no tolerance for time wasting nonsense anymore.
Meh. If I want to play a tactical ttrpg with fiddly combat rules, I already have Pathfinder 2e. I don't know what this does that's worth $65.
The author delivered a great marketing, this beats Shadowdark for me for the sheer number of youtubers I heard comment on it. Huge success.
I'm not personally interested - it looks somewhat better than MCDM and CR stuff for me, and it has some neat ideas (that are not as new as people seem to assume), but sounds too crunchy for my tastes (it is the opposite of Shadowdark, that feels flimsy to me).
Still, I might check a free SRD if there is one and try to mine some ideas. DC 20 does LOTS of things I LIKE: fixed damage, mana points, no HP bloat, etc. While I'm not currently looking for a new game (that is not compatible with anything else I already have, apparently, which is a huge issue for me), I'd check this one if I were.
I mostly like the mechanical pitch. I think it sounds to be slightly mechanically superior at the core to MCDM RPG, Daggerheart, or Pathfinder 2E. However, I doubt the execution will actually live up to that.
The biggest downside is almost certainly going to be game balance. "Taking advances from any class" and "multiattack as a core feature," and "you may combo attack with other characters" are each gameplay features which tend to exaggerate balance problems. Putting them together makes me think this game will never be balanced. I can live with an imbalanced game, but this system looks to provide quite limited gameplay before the community discovers many ways to break it. Once that happens it will probably be a dead game.
So...promising, but I predict it will at most be a flash in the pan. And quite likely one which burns the groups which adopt it without realizing that the game will have balance issues.
If I want a lot of crunch then GURPS is still available. I am happy with simpler systems that just get out of the way. Right now I am fiddling with OSE to make it what I want. The way I handle weapon damage is that damage is determined by general weapon size and training of the wielder. So as a fighter levels up, he does more damage on a hit. One of the problems I wanted to address was getting rid of the concept of "loser" weapons no one uses because they do less damage than others.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AMIn theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.
This is what I want from the RPGs I play, thought into the actual flow of the rules at the table and does mechanic X or Y really change the game enough to justify another step or two in combat resolution.
I remember running into this reading Tales of Valiant and seeing their luck rules: https://rpgbot.net/tov/transition-guide/#inspiration-gt-luck
I was like, wow, hey, something else to track round to round... so awesome. DC20 to me seems like it's full of similar "cool" mechanics that will just bog down play or be a PITA to manage/track round to round.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 16, 2024, 07:36:31 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on June 15, 2024, 08:39:55 AMBasing a game on Pathfinder is not a selling point to me. That game is bloated and a pain. I am truly floored that it ever became popular.
I think back to the 80s when my group played Space Opera and Harnmaster and complexity didn't phase us. I don't know if it was a gradual build up of complex game after more complex game or if it was just youth and time. Either way I bet the Pathfinder fans are young and/or came from an nearly as complex game.
I'm curious if the bulk of the rules-light fans are lapsed gamers returning to the table top with no tolerance for time wasting nonsense anymore.
That's certainly the case for me. We played 3.5 quite happily for almost a decade, and a friend of mine was a serious book collector, so we played it with literally dozens of supplements. If I hadn't dropped out of the hobby around the time, I probably would have been a huge Pathfinder 1 fan.
Nowadays I've got a more than full time job and a family to support, and I just don't have the time and energy to get my head around a rules-system with that kind of complex character-building and meta. I can learn the rules to a complex game and show up to play, but I don't run them, and as soon as I get a whiff of the system requiring intimate rules knowledge to make or play an effective character I lose interest.
EDIT: At least for me, there is also a question of rising standards. Part of the reason why my friends and I ran 3.5 so happily for all those years is because we weren't all that bothered about running it well. We didn't care much if we were running the rules wrong, or if the PCs were overpowered or how long the campaigns lasted or anything like that. We got together largely at random and were happy to just roll dice and drink Mt. Dew all night.
Now I not only hold myself to higher standards as a DM, but I also play with people who aren't my childhood friends. Flubbing my way through the rules and letting PCs get away with anything is a lot less acceptable than it was back then. I know I still occasionally get tempted to answer one of those "new players need a DM for 5e/Pathfinder" postings, but I never do. The chief reason why is that I don't really know all the ins and outs of 5e (and even less so for Pathfinder 2), and I know myself well enough to know I won't bother to learn them properly.
I can pick up something like Dragon Warriors or By This Axe I Hack and learn the system well enough to run it in maybe two read-throughs of the book. Becoming a proficient Pathfinder 2 DM would probably take me months.
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 18, 2024, 11:51:20 AMI can pick up something like Dragon Warriors or By This Axe I Hack and learn the system well enough to run it in maybe two read-throughs of the book. Becoming a proficient Pathfinder 2 DM would probably take me months.
I very much feel this! I never played 2e thru 4e D&D. Moved from 1e to Hero and GURPS, dabbled in a handful of other games, then 5e, then back to playing OSR stuff, dabbled in Savage Worlds...
Coming from 1e I found 2014 PHB 5e to be a more cohesive, better written version that was fast to pick up. But just going through character creation in Pathfinder 1 made me want to set the book on fire. Coming from Hero made Savage Worlds seem familiar and easy to master. But I've bounced *hard* off of the PbtA games I've tried.
It's as if I burned some RPG neural pathways into my brain in my teens and 20s and any game adjacent to those is easy to GM. But GMing anything more than one step removed from B/X, 1e, Hero, GURPS requires more time, effort, and patience than I'm willing to commit. I can do it, but it isn't *fun*.
I'm interested in it, but at the end of the day Pathfinder 2 is my go to "Dungeons and Dragons" game, and there isn't any third party game that's going to be supported nearly as well as that.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on June 14, 2024, 02:34:45 AMThis is one of the best videos I've come across regarding the whole "D&D killer" thing. The video not only addresses DC20, but also Shadowdark. The Dungeon Coach also left a comment.
Thank you! I appreciate it.
I would like the game if new rules replaced old rules.
DC20 sounds like a game that has all the old rules, and then even more tacked on as well. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in complexity.
I am a big fan of elegant, efficient, and low page count rules.
I actually like it. Am purchasing and won't be playing 5e for anything but nostalgia (if a friend asks me to run that instead of DC20), moving to DC20. People say its crunchier than 5e, but not sure what you mean, specifically, but willing to hear ya out.
Some of you fall under the "I'd rather play X" crowd. Okay, but if that's all ya got without why, you're just offering lip service in a vacuum.
Or you're biased to your favorite game. I know that deal, bc that's how I was with PF being offered as the D&D Killer before. I looked at PF. Now that's crunchy, as was 3.5, which is why I took a huge break between AD&D 2e and 5e - I liked 3e destroying THAC0, but then 3.5 added so many numbers with it that by the time you were done calculating your to hit, you had a physics equation on a wipe board. I'm not about that crunch-life, bro, but to each their own (you like what you like, I like what I like too).
As far as direct to DC20 as a game:
- The By-5s rule is how you get the better numbers in combat. The base damage is mostly 1, some are 0, some are 2. Beat by 5 = +1, by 10 = +2, Nat 20 = +1. So with a 1 base weapon, possibly 4 damage, but you can throw Action points into maneuvers and techniques to add more damage, or spell/ smites to do even more. But the real magic is in your attack roll. That's where all your Damage also comes from. That's kinda cool. The same is true of healing; you roll the d20 and, by 5s, it increases. Like maneuvers and techniques, pump more mana into the spell for more/ better effects.
- Death Saves that a nat 20 brings you back with 1 hp? Not really. So theirs (Deaths Door) lets you continue to fight with just 1 AP, as you hold your innards in and swing the weapon wildly. Get to -3 (for level 1) and you be dead dude; Do not pass GO, do not collect $200. Each round on Deaths Door, you're going to lose 1 more hp, if you don't get killed from battle, then you'll die from holding those innards. So those who like a more perma-death type game, enjoy. Resurrection mechanics are prob going to be just as difficult. And healing isn't going to be the merry-go-round of 0 hp - 5hp - 0 hp - 4 hp bc a cleric is standing behind you feeling you up all the while.
- The balance between casters and melee is almost square - though I don't think we'll ever have the same balance as we did with 1e/2e AD&D, or OD&D. But, tbf, that balanced was achieved by .... BANG. You're dead. Roll a new character. Yeah, no background/ backstory back then. Alignment was all you needed - Adventuring was a tough life bro! Ya didn't have a long life expectancy!
- They eliminate the INT/ WIS thing altogether. WIN. Just INT, no WIS. CON is done totally differently, and the Primary Attribute is nicely done, allowing some very basic things like perception to be based in just being an adventurer to begin with. BC are you telling me in your game that a Fighter isn't going to have his head on a swivel because he doesn't feel the presence of a goddess in his life (lack of a high WIS)? It's good, well thought out mechanics.
- The game is in development directly with the community (I have offered things to the mix as well, like contacting the Bicycle Card company to make Spell/ Feature/ Maneuver/ Technique/ Condition cards for the game, which Alan received very positively and is getting to work on)
- I find the initiative a bit crunchy, having to beat an Encounter DC is kind of weird. Then the DM gets to alternate the NPCs without having to roll anything more than the Encounter DC challenge. Also ... weird, but cool, as it means no dog-piling, for PCs or NPCs. But it seems to be arbitrarily in favor of the DM planting initiatives wherever he wants as long as he weaves them alternately among the PCs. If I'm an Evil DM, I let the big-bad go first in the NPC order with an AOE, then use the others as cleanup crew. My PCs, your welcome. I'm not an Evil DM. While I do feel the mechanics are crunchy, I know Collville likes you to roll a new initiative every round, discuss and roll what you are going to do, then processes it. When I compare those apples, I'll take DC20 any day! And MCDM LOVES - absolutely LOVES - math and crunch; so I won't be backing the MCDM RPG at all.
But there is no other place I feel the crunch. Seems like D&D to me, with all the stupid bits worked out. I tried to like Daggerheart and Candella bc I love CR/ Mercer & Co, but it's not for me for the same reason as MCDM. Crunch.
The other commentary I see here a lot is the "Who's THIS guy?!!", or "He's just a YouTuber who did a lot of D&D Homebrew". Yup, and Unlike the one commenter, I actually find him humble bc of it. He did a $2M Kickstarter for this game; that's actually something. And yeah, fellow YouTuber's came out to play and talk about it (Colby from d4, Chris from Treantmonk, Fermin of Mr. Rhexx, Bob Worldbuilder, and Will from D&D Shorts were the ones I recognized); paid? Maybe? IDK, does anyone? But far better that he pays them and they support him than the company that laid off a huge section of it's workforce before Christmas and was later found to be producing content from AI and charging $75 for it. Am I right?
Now, there is a total thing mentioned here in this post that I can relate to. Dang rite a chicken or a housecat SHOULD NOT be able to kill even a 1st level fighter, whether that's a 20 on the die or 1000. If so, please, hang up the sword before an ostrich or a stray dog find you! Personally, I think they can stat these things for familiars and summons, but none should be able to do enough damage to even get 1 hp. Maybe a spider can poison you, but then you'd be poisoned for at least 6 hours before taking 1 hp from a Recluse, Widow, or Tarantula (not counting Shelob, that stinger looked painful). D&D gave you 1 piercing from that spider. Really? Just seems dumb that a spider bite would hurt as bad as a wizard's punch to the face.
My gaming group has tried out DC20 and we like it - certainly much better than D&D 5e. One benefit is that you have a range of possible reactions you can take and are thus not completely inactive when it's not your turn. Combat also becomes much more unpredictable because of the wide variety of maneuvers that can be combined with an attack and, in some cases, saved against. However, certain maneuver-spell combinations are overpowered and need to be addressed as playtesting continues. Some of the creature stats have to be changed as well. Why does a wolf have a claw attack, for example?
My 2c:
Overall, it looks interesting, but not enough for me to try a new system.
I WILL check it if there is a free version, out of curiosity.
The name "DC 20" is great and the guy did superb advertising because I've seen it all over YT.
Now, to the specifics.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM1. Four attributes. Strength, Agility, Intelligence, and Charisma.
2. Any of the four attributes can be your primary attribute, and helps you do your class's main thing. If you want to be a Charismatic Fighter, go for it. You just RP that your fighter is good at shit-talking and making the other guy flub their attacks, or drop their defenses so you can hit them back.
3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
4. Fighting type characters have stamina points to power their super moves. Not a lot, though, like 1-5, starting with 1.
5. Magic users use Mana points, not spell slots. You can even pump more mana into a spell to make it do more (so will beating the target number by a lot, just like a fighter's sword attack).
6. You get 4 action points per round. If you spam the same move, each one gets disadvantage. AKA, your 4th attack in a row means you roll 4D20, take the lowest result.
7. Combo moves with other players is a common thing, and can be done when it is NOT your turn. Want to boost your buddy's attack by launching him in a leap off of your shield? Do it. It costs you one of your action 4 action points.
8. When you level up you can take abilities from any of the other classes rather than just stick to your own. This is how you customize your characters. I think it does cost you more to do so.
Overall DC20 has been described as a halfway point between 5E and Pathfinder 2E.
1. Fine.
2. I do not think this is a good idea, but I'd try it. Notice that old school D&D usually allows for a smart fighter, etc. I do not like the idea that the fighter is not at least encouraged to be strong and quick. It weakens the archetype, like a MU with bulging muscles or the book-smart barbarian.
3. I really like this idea but from what I've seem the weapons look too similar in practice.
4. Cool.
5. I like that much better than spell slots, currently using spell points in my OSR campaign.
6. Sounds complicated, lets see how it works in practice.
7. Nice.
8. That's fine too.
BTW, I do not need a halfway point between 5E and Pathfinder 2E, but I'd love to see a "halfway point between 5E and B/X". There are a few good options out there and some of them are free.
EDIT: I just realized I had already replied to this thread...
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PMDC20 by the Dungeon Coach.
It is a fantasy game, with these features.
1. Four attributes. Strength, Agility, Intelligence, and Charisma.
2. Any of the four attributes can be your primary attribute, and helps you do your class's main thing. If you want to be a Charismatic Fighter, go for it. You just RP that your fighter is good at shit-talking and making the other guy flub their attacks, or drop their defenses so you can hit them back.
3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
4. Fighting type characters have stamina points to power their super moves. Not a lot, though, like 1-5, starting with 1.
5. Magic users use Mana points, not spell slots. You can even pump more mana into a spell to make it do more (so will beating the target number by a lot, just like a fighter's sword attack).
6. You get 4 action points per round. If you spam the same move, each one gets disadvantage. AKA, your 4th attack in a row means you roll 4D20, take the lowest result.
7. Combo moves with other players is a common thing, and can be done when it is NOT your turn. Want to boost your buddy's attack by launching him in a leap off of your shield? Do it. It costs you one of your action 4 action points.
8. When you level up you can take abilities from any of the other classes rather than just stick to your own. This is how you customize your characters. I think it does cost you more to do so.
Overall DC20 has been described as a halfway point between 5E and Pathfinder 2E.
It sounds good to me, and has been popping up in my YouTube feed a lot lately. I like what I see.
I hadn't really paid much attention to this so far, it seems like there are a few good ideas to the game worth checking out. At least it merits further looking into.
I highly suggest Nimble as an altrernative: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever (https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever)
It has all these innovations in a much lighter and faster package. It is also cheap!
Quote from: Batjon on August 21, 2024, 07:57:13 PMI highly suggest Nimble as an altrernative: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever (https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever)
It has all these innovations in a much lighter and faster package. It is also cheap!
Nimble 5E is the other OSR game that has been in the YouTube algorithm a lot lately.
I haven't posted about it because Nimble isn't that far along from what I can see.
Nimble I might consider playing, but not as a first choice. DC20 just feels like a slog. Both are D&D based games, and I have found plenty of other games to fill that niche for me.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AMQuote from: Aglondir on June 16, 2024, 01:04:35 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3. Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number. Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.
i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.
Tried it with my own system. The biggest problem is the little bit of extra complexity slows things down way more the benefit it adds.
Specifically, you're adding a subtraction function which requires knowing the target's defense number (subtract defense number from attack number) in addition to the usual damage math (replacing adding up the dice rolled and modifiers with base + result of subtraction operation).
It basically means you can't roll your hit and damage at the same time or roll a bit ahead to speed up calculations (common practice with a lot of tables I play at is to start rolling your attacks as the previous player is wrapping up since conditions are now known enough to choose your action(s) so when your turn comes up you can say "I attack X with [attack roll result] for [damage roll result]" repeated for as many attacks as you have... this knocks through most player turns in 10-20 seconds depending on if there's anything extra with their attacks).
You could achieve similar results for rolling ahead if you knew defense numbers outright, but not all GMs are comfortable with that.
Personally, I had better results with fixed damage and increasing the number of attacks so that the variable became how many of them landed.
In theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.
I've had a different experience with my system, which is similar. If a pc is just attacking with
strike, i.e. "I hit it with my sword," the player rolls attack (d6 + a fixed number for skill etc + relevant modifiers), I roll defense (same thing), and if it's a hit then damage is the difference in the totals. In practice it flies, much quicker than any version of D&D I've played. Maybe it helps that the totals only go into the mid-teens. I'd be interested in your thoughts on why we're seeing different results.
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 14, 2024, 08:37:04 AMQuote from: Rhymer88 on June 14, 2024, 02:34:45 AMThis is one of the best videos I've come across regarding the whole "D&D killer" thing. The video not only addresses DC20, but also Shadowdark.
Yeah, I think everything in this video is probably correct. The Shadowdark comparison seems apt in terms of the market situation driving DC20's success, and the World of Warcraft comparison is probably bang-on as regards the "D&D killer" trope. I was playing WoW back in its prime, and I remember every new MMO starting the same conversation.
I might look more at DC20 later, but based on Weirdguy's summary, you can add me to the "not interested" list. Usually the phrase "action points" is a bad sign in a TRPG, and it generally seems like the design is taking a lot of influence from computer RPGs. Might be a good game, but that kind of design approach tends to produce a game in which "system mastery" becomes key to the player's success. Honestly I just don't have the time and energy these days to go pouring through a rulebook trying to work out what the optimal build paths and uses of action economy are. I don't even like that shit in videogames anymore.
Optimally, you shouldn't even need to know the rules of a tabletop RPG to make good choices. I prefer a game where you can just do whatever makes sense for your character in the game world, and the rules will have your back.
100% this.
Just seems like a whole lotta people trying to take over the void when D&D goes digital. Or, at least compete with WotC. I guess. The only one I'm interested in is Luke Crane's Dungeon World 2e.
Honestly, going back over all of DC20's features, I only like one.
I like that any stat can be a primary stat. A Charisma Fighter, or a Strength Wizard.
Aka, you RP that your warrior is just a motormouth and S-ranked in trash talking and humor. Battling this warrior is just so distracting.
And the brawny Strength Wizard? He just uses arcane power channeled thru his own body. But, often it is so much raw, mystical energy that it would kill a lesser man. He's tough enough to take it with a shout, gritted teeth, and flexing the pecks, abdominals, and biceps the size of logs. He works thru the pain like a man, and channels the power of nature the hard way.
And the rest sounds good to anyone who likes complexity. That's where the game goes off the rail for me.
I'll stick to Tiny-D6, Pocket Fantady, or Kogarashi for now. Those games I actually play.
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 14, 2024, 08:37:04 AMOptimally, you shouldn't even need to know the rules of a tabletop RPG to make good choices. I prefer a game where you can just do whatever makes sense for your character in the game world, and the rules will have your back.
This is my #1 criterion for game evaluation. If the mechanics do this, then it's likely a very good game.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on August 22, 2024, 08:36:36 AMQuote from: Batjon on August 21, 2024, 07:57:13 PMI highly suggest Nimble as an altrernative: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever (https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever)
It has all these innovations in a much lighter and faster package. It is also cheap!
Nimble 5E is the other OSR game that has been in the YouTube algorithm a lot lately.
I haven't posted about it because Nimble isn't that far along from what I can see.
Nimble I might consider playing, but not as a first choice. DC20 just feels like a slog. Both are D&D based games, and I have found plenty of other games to fill that niche for me.
Nimble isn't really OSR, it's more trying to do a similar thing as this but going rules light instead of rules heavy.
Quote from: RNGm on June 14, 2024, 11:43:14 AMI got turned off by the carnival barker style promotion by the Dungeon Coach for the project. A little bit of humility goes a long way and he really hasn't shown any in the months that I was subscribed to his channel after the OGL debacle (until very recently when I unsubscribed). He'd for example go on about how his new idea of using any stat for defense was such a revolutionary concept that would redefine how things are done only to drop the turd a few months later with a short mention that using constitution equivalent for dodging was not working out but his new superduper awesome totally rad idea was to use dex equivalent to make you harder to hit instead! OMG, why didn't anyone think of that before!?!? Genius!
Other than the game being overly complicated and having way too many pools of points to keep track of, this is my major issue. There are lots of people making 5e alternatives these days and this guy is simply the most prominent. His play experience is all 5e, his design experience is all 5e house rules, and his audience is mostly 5e. What he has ended up doing is reverse engineering chunks of 3rd and 4th edition or other games via 5e house rules, where he could have saved himself a lot of time and effort by doing some basic research or trying other things.
He has videos where he says things like "Armor Class? Wuhhh? What were they thinking calling it that??" It's fine to think it's a bad idea but this is information you could easily look up or learn about. He does that with a lot of things. Vancian casting being another example. Lots of people hate it, lots of people have always hated it, it's been changed through house rules and other games for decades, and 5e itself has an optional rule to use spell points instead of slots. It's fine to not like it. But instead of looking up why it works that way and learning about some of the Appendix N influence on Gygax, he talks as though it's a total mystery, but don't worry, I've got the fix. Just a very myopic view of the hobby.
I am sure that this will work for some people, but as for the rules they don't interest me. I don't like fixed damage (A problem I had with Warhammer Fantasy RPG) and I already have what I need for fantasy games.
I wish him luck and success with his game though.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on August 26, 2024, 05:45:27 PMI like that any stat can be a primary stat.
That's my
least favorite feature. I get what it's trying to do, but it comes at the cost of the kind of mechanical depth this game prioritizes. It punishes generalists, and there's still areas which require
specific attributes.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 17, 2024, 08:36:58 AMThe author delivered a great marketing, this beats Shadowdark for me for the sheer number of youtubers I heard comment on it. Huge success.
I'm not personally interested - it looks somewhat better than MCDM and CR stuff for me, and it has some neat ideas (that are not as new as people seem to assume), but sounds too crunchy for my tastes (it is the opposite of Shadowdark, that feels flimsy to me).
Still, I might check a free SRD if there is one and try to mine some ideas. DC 20 does LOTS of things I LIKE: fixed damage, mana points, no HP bloat, etc. While I'm not currently looking for a new game (that is not compatible with anything else I already have, apparently, which is a huge issue for me), I'd check this one if I were.
Well, my brother and I recently started looking into this game again. So, I'm resurrecting my old thread to continue the conversation.
1st, the kickstarter earned $2.2 million in the end.
Also, the kickstarter page is still active and the author updated about a week or so ago, so it's not dead.
2nd, there is now a link on the website to download the playtest RPG.
DC20 free Playtest rules (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0539/7610/5135/files/DC20_Playtest_Rules_Preview_ce59c94a-0c96-4a52-bb4a-afe914cc08f9.pdf?v=1724695005)
As Eric said, it's easier to gauge the quality if there was a free SRD, and now there is. Well, here you go.
I followed it peripherally (mainly by watching the videos on youtube) as the designer had some good ideas in the past but soon lost interest. His carnival barker style presentation started to annoy me as I saw him peddling obviously dogshit ideas as the next best thing in gaming like a barbarian who attacks with his axe with charisma or a fighter using strength for AC... And then seeing him finally realize months later that having only one stat matter might just maybe lead to some wonky minmaxed builds so his nexest bestest idea is even greater!!!!
Quote from: RNGm on April 19, 2025, 03:06:44 PMI followed it peripherally (mainly by watching the videos on youtube) as the designer had some good ideas in the past but soon lost interest. His carnival barker style presentation started to annoy me as I saw him peddling obviously dogshit ideas as the next best thing in gaming like a barbarian who attacks with his axe with charisma or a fighter using strength for AC... And then seeing him finally realize months later that having only one stat matter might just maybe lead to some wonky minmaxed builds so his nexest bestest idea is even greater!!!!
Well, I can't say I'm surprised.
Quote from: Fheredin on June 17, 2024, 09:52:50 AMThe biggest downside is almost certainly going to be game balance. "Taking advances from any class" and "multiattack as a core feature," and "you may combo attack with other characters" are each gameplay features which tend to exaggerate balance problems. Putting them together makes me think this game will never be balanced.
I think most of us probably saw the balance problems coming in one way or another. You can't play RPGs for any period of time and not recognize when a combination of features are entirely chosen based on marketing hypeability and not on how balanceable the game itself is. I probably will check out the SRD weirdguy564 posted. I am perfectly content to play unbalanced games (it's something akin to a lobster kicking back and enjoying being boiled to death. It's wildly fun if you can get into the right frame of mind.) But a lot of the evangelists of DC20 seem to have thought of it as a D&D killer, which it sadly is not.
For what it's worth, the really stupid stuff I was referring to was around version 0.4 or 0.5 of his alpha/beta/whatever. Based on title cards I've seen on recommended youtube videos more recently, he's up to about 0.9 last I saw.
My home rpg group has playtested version 0.8 and it was still unbalanced. We'll soon try out version 0.9 and see how that goes.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on Today at 03:58:19 AMMy home rpg group has playtested version 0.8 and it was still unbalanced. We'll soon try out version 0.9 and see how that goes.
How did that whole single prime stat used for almost everything work out? Supposedly he was toning down the importance of it when I last watched a video in full back around 0.5.
The biggest thing to me is how quiet this game has gone. I honestly didn't even remember it until my brother brought it up, and even then it was a bit fuzzy.
I suppose after getting 2.2 million dollars the author didn't need to make noise. Kelsie Dionne did the same thing when finishing ShadowDark.