Quote from: Batjon on August 21, 2024, 07:57:13 PMI highly suggest Nimble as an altrernative: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever

It has all these innovations in a much lighter and faster package.  It is also cheap!

Nimble 5E is the other OSR game that has been in the YouTube algorithm a lot lately. 

I haven't posted about it because Nimble isn't that far along from what I can see.

Nimble I might consider playing, but not as a first choice.  DC20 just feels like a slog.  Both are D&D based games, and I have found plenty of other games to fill that niche for me. 

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 16, 2024, 08:37:22 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 16, 2024, 01:04:35 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 13, 2024, 07:25:08 PM3.  Damage is fixed by weapon type (it isn't a roll), but you do more damage by beating the enemy defense number.  Roll super high to hit, you will do more damage.

i like this idea-- might be worth stealing. The rest, not so much.

Tried it with my own system. The biggest problem is the little bit of extra complexity slows things down way more the benefit it adds.

Specifically, you're adding a subtraction function which requires knowing the target's defense number (subtract defense number from attack number) in addition to the usual damage math (replacing adding up the dice rolled and modifiers with base + result of subtraction operation).

It basically means you can't roll your hit and damage at the same time or roll a bit ahead to speed up calculations (common practice with a lot of tables I play at is to start rolling your attacks as the previous player is wrapping up since conditions are now known enough to choose your action(s) so when your turn comes up you can say "I attack X with [attack roll result] for [damage roll result]" repeated for as many attacks as you have... this knocks through most player turns in 10-20 seconds depending on if there's anything extra with their attacks).

You could achieve similar results for rolling ahead if you knew defense numbers outright, but not all GMs are comfortable with that.

Personally, I had better results with fixed damage and increasing the number of attacks so that the variable became how many of them landed.

In theory, five attacks for 4 damage each should take longer than one attack for 3d6+2 and the average result will obviously be different... but in practice... "I rolled a 7, 12, 15, 15, and 17 for 4 damage" and the GM saying "three hits. 12 damage." is just as fast or faster and makes the results more of a bell curve as well.

I've had a different experience with my system, which is similar.  If a pc is just attacking with strike, i.e. "I hit it with my sword," the player rolls attack (d6 + a fixed number for skill etc + relevant modifiers), I roll defense (same thing), and if it's a hit then damage is the difference in the totals.  In practice it flies, much quicker than any version of D&D I've played.  Maybe it helps that the totals only go into the mid-teens.  I'd be interested in your thoughts on why we're seeing different results.

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 14, 2024, 08:37:04 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on June 14, 2024, 02:34:45 AMThis is one of the best videos I've come across regarding the whole "D&D killer" thing. The video not only addresses DC20, but also Shadowdark.

Yeah, I think everything in this video is probably correct. The Shadowdark comparison seems apt in terms of the market situation driving DC20's success, and the World of Warcraft comparison is probably bang-on as regards the "D&D killer" trope. I was playing WoW back in its prime, and I remember every new MMO starting the same conversation.

I might look more at DC20 later, but based on Weirdguy's summary, you can add me to the "not interested" list. Usually the phrase "action points" is a bad sign in a TRPG, and it generally seems like the design is taking a lot of influence from computer RPGs. Might be a good game, but that kind of design approach tends to produce a game in which "system mastery" becomes key to the player's success. Honestly I just don't have the time and energy these days to go pouring through a rulebook trying to work out what the optimal build paths and uses of action economy are. I don't even like that shit in videogames anymore.

Optimally, you shouldn't even need to know the rules of a tabletop RPG to make good choices. I prefer a game where you can just do whatever makes sense for your character in the game world, and the rules will have your back.

100% this.

Just seems like a whole lotta people trying to take over the void when D&D goes digital. Or, at least compete with WotC. I guess. The only one I'm interested in is Luke Crane's Dungeon World 2e.

Honestly, going back over all of DC20's features, I only like one.

I like that any stat can be a primary stat.  A Charisma Fighter, or a Strength Wizard.

Aka, you RP that your warrior is just a motormouth and S-ranked in trash talking and humor.  Battling this warrior is just so distracting.

And the brawny Strength Wizard?  He just uses arcane power channeled thru his own body.  But, often it is so much raw, mystical energy that it would kill a lesser man.  He's tough enough to take it with a shout, gritted teeth, and flexing the pecks, abdominals, and biceps the size of logs. He works thru the pain like a man, and channels the power of nature the hard way.

And the rest sounds good to anyone who likes complexity.  That's where the game goes off the rail for me. 

I'll stick to Tiny-D6, Pocket Fantady, or Kogarashi for now.  Those games I actually play.

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 14, 2024, 08:37:04 AMOptimally, you shouldn't even need to know the rules of a tabletop RPG to make good choices. I prefer a game where you can just do whatever makes sense for your character in the game world, and the rules will have your back.

This is my #1 criterion for game evaluation.  If the mechanics do this, then it's likely a very good game.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on August 22, 2024, 08:36:36 AM

Quote from: Batjon on August 21, 2024, 07:57:13 PMI highly suggest Nimble as an altrernative: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/nimble-co/nimble-2-your-best-5e-combat-ever

It has all these innovations in a much lighter and faster package.  It is also cheap!

Nimble 5E is the other OSR game that has been in the YouTube algorithm a lot lately. 

I haven't posted about it because Nimble isn't that far along from what I can see.

Nimble I might consider playing, but not as a first choice.  DC20 just feels like a slog.  Both are D&D based games, and I have found plenty of other games to fill that niche for me. 

Nimble isn't really OSR, it's more trying to do a similar thing as this but going rules light instead of rules heavy.

Quote from: RNGm on June 14, 2024, 11:43:14 AMI got turned off by the carnival barker style promotion by the Dungeon Coach for the project.  A little bit of humility goes a long way and he really hasn't shown any in the months that I was subscribed to his channel after the OGL debacle (until very recently when I unsubscribed).   He'd for example go on about how his new idea of using any stat for defense was such a revolutionary concept that would redefine how things are done only to drop the turd a few months later with a short mention that using constitution equivalent for dodging was not working out but his new superduper awesome totally rad idea was to use dex equivalent to make you harder to hit instead!  OMG, why didn't anyone think of that before!?!?   Genius!

Other than the game being overly complicated and having way too many pools of points to keep track of, this is my major issue. There are lots of people making 5e alternatives these days and this guy is simply the most prominent. His play experience is all 5e, his design experience is all 5e house rules, and his audience is mostly 5e. What he has ended up doing is reverse engineering chunks of 3rd and 4th edition or other games via 5e house rules, where he could have saved himself a lot of time and effort by doing some basic research or trying other things.

He has videos where he says things like "Armor Class? Wuhhh? What were they thinking calling it that??" It's fine to think it's a bad idea but this is information you could easily look up or learn about. He does that with a lot of things. Vancian casting being another example. Lots of people hate it, lots of people have always hated it, it's been changed through house rules and other games for decades, and 5e itself has an optional rule to use spell points instead of slots. It's fine to not like it. But instead of looking up why it works that way and learning about some of the Appendix N influence on Gygax, he talks as though it's a total mystery, but don't worry, I've got the fix. Just a very myopic view of the hobby.

I am sure that this will work for some people, but as for the rules they don't interest me.  I don't like fixed damage (A problem I had with Warhammer Fantasy RPG) and I already have what I need for fantasy games.

I wish him luck and success with his game though.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on August 26, 2024, 05:45:27 PMI like that any stat can be a primary stat.

That's my least favorite feature. I get what it's trying to do, but it comes at the cost of the kind of mechanical depth this game prioritizes. It punishes generalists, and there's still areas which require specific attributes.