Over in another thread about quirks in characters, there was this.

Quote from: WarthurWell, lots of games these days toss the players a couple of XP per session anyhow for "good roleplaying" or just for showing up to the game, neither of which I consider to be good reasons to give XP - giving XP for "good roleplaying" makes it feel like the GM is a dog trainer trying to get the players to perform tricks for him[...]

But the player is there to perform roleplaying tricks which entertain the GM... and entertain the other players. And they themselves. While the GM is there to entertain everyone. Everyone's there to entertain each-other and themselves.

As GM, I grant xp for things which contribute to the fun of the whole group. No negatives are given, but double bonuses are often given, for example when a player brought homebrew beers, they got a triple "munchies" bonus These are:

• showing up on time ready to play
• bringing munchies and sharing them
• good acting - defined as, "we could tell what your character's traits were without your showing us your character sheet"
• bravery - doing anything personally confronting for the character; often this will involve not fighting.
  
• constructive - any idea or behaviour which helped the mission (if any) to completion, and/or kept the game moving.
• journal - a write-up of the events of the session.

All these are things which contribute to the fun of the group. I usually send out the xp the day after the game session in a group email. While I as GM decide these things, you can be sure that the players let me know if they think I'm being overly harsh; more often they tell me I'm being overly generous.

I don't see why anyone would think it's a bad idea for people to receive a game mechanical award for contributing to the fun of the group. If a player doesn't like xp, they are always free to not spend them on anything... I've never seen it yet, though, except in one case - and that was extreme laziness, encouraged by the GM not know the game's rules - no need to improve your character's abilities if they're never tested...

Am I the only GM on therpgsite who rewards players as though they're dancing monkeys for my and the group's entertainment? What do you give XP for?

Quote from: Kyle AaronAm I the only GM on therpgsite who rewards players as though they're dancing monkeys for my and the group's entertainment? What do you give XP for?

I don't give XPs, or give identical amounts to everyone periodically. You probably guessed that already.

-clash

I guess I should explain myself: I don't like to give XP for "good roleplaying" because, well, what does that mean? I don't feel comfortable making that call as GM, because I don't want to impose my definition of "good roleplaying" on the players, and I certainly don't want to be in the position where I'm saying "OK, Amy, Joe and Jen roleplayed well, so they get bonus XP, but Jim didn't so he doesn't get any." Even if I don't use those words, by the very act of not giving Jim Good Roleplaying XP I'm implicitly criticising his performance.

All too often I have seen GMs give XP for "good roleplaying" when it was actually "good roleplaying that I noticed". Quiet people tend not to get XP for "good roleplaying", even if they had a damn good reason to be quiet that session. (For example: "I didn't really want to get involved with the discussion, because the topic at hand touched too much on my character's Dark Secret, and I realised that if I tried to steer the conversation away from that topic it'd make the others suspicions: the best thing to do was just keep quiet and hope that the conversation moved on".)

I also intensely dislike trying to be a developmental psychologist with my friends (and I have no interest, at this time, in gaming with people who I don't consider to be friends, or at least potential friends). I'm not up for handing out Scooby Snacks just for showing up to the game (because, dude, how is an in-game currency going to draw people in if they're not that involved in the game anyhow?), or for bringing munchies and sharing them (because munchies are their own reward), or for generally behaving like a nice and co-operative gamer, because I can trust the people I game with to do that as a matter of course.

No, in my view XP are an in-game reward, and they should be awarded for tangible in-game achievements.

I award XP based on how each individiual game says to award it, working under the assumption that playtesters used that as well and it generates a good pace for advancement. So in D&D it's XP for CR vs. ECL of challenges, in Exalted it's 6xp for showing up (we have long sessions) plus more for stunting, great deeds, and finishing "stories."

You didn't answer the question of the thread, Warthur, "what do you award xp for?" You simply critiqued my XP awarding.

It's not hard to judge the "good" roleplaying because as I said, I defined it: "We could tell the traits of your character without seeing your character sheet." You shouldn't have to tell us your character is Law-Abiding, or Sadistic or whatever. It should show.

Of course if you leave exactly what is "good roleplaying" undefined then you're going to feel uncomfortable in judging these things.

Yes, generally quiet people get less XP. This is because their quietness does not contribute to the fun of the group, any more than a football player standing around in the corner of the football field contributes to the fun or success of their team. Roleplaying's a social creative hobby.

Players being quiet because of the circumstances is a different thing. They just need to be creative.

On the other hand, I often find that the quietest player, though they sometimes miss out on the "acting" bonus, they get the "constructive" bonus. They contribute ideas which help the group along. So for example a character with a Dark Secret being threatened by the conversation, their player could suggest something to another player who's having the discussion. The player can contribute to the game even if the character is doing nothing. This gives them the "constructive" bonus.

Then afterwards they can go and write their journal about their Dark Secret and get the journal bonus.

The "showing up on time ready to play" bonus isn't simply a reward simply for showing up, it's showing up on time ready to play. That means come on time, bring your dice and character sheet, pay attention, don't yank out your pile of comic books you just bought. It's also meant to establish a minimum - even if all you do is show up on time ready to play, you get that XP award.

Munchies are not their own reward. Bringing them and sharing them is the reward; it contributes to the "social" part of our social creative hobby. If munchies were their own reward I wouldn't have to have them at roleplaying game sessions, I could just eat them by myself at home. The rewarding thing is sharing. In Australia we've a tradition of "shouting rounds." If four people go to the pub together, each takes a turn to buy the round of drinks, their own drink and one for the other three. After four rounds, it's financially identical to each person simply buying their own drinks each round. But it doesn't feel the same. It feels good to buy your mates drinks, and it feels good to have them buy them, too. A person who gets up and goes when it's his round is viewed with some suspicion, and tends not to be invited back. This tradition carries on with our munchies in rpg sessions. It's simply nicer to bring stuff and share it than for everyone to hunch protectively over the stuff they got for themselves. Social.

No-one in my games is rewarded simply for being a nice and co-operative gamer. They're rewarded for those six things which contribute to the fun of the group. Certainly people can do them without any XP reward; but having it laid out for everyone clearly after everyone session helps remind them.

My XP I give are also an in-game reward, and are for tangible in-game achievements. The player can't spend their XP at the shop, only on their character and things in the game world; therefore it's an "in-game reward." The fun we have is in the game session, and the rewards are for contributing to that fun; "fun" for everyone not being deliberately obtuse is a tangible achievement.

Broadly speaking... advancing towards the goal of the adventure or contributing towards the enjoyment of the game.

Those can apply to a lot of things, but there you go.

I give out XP for defeating monsters and overcoming other challenges, pretty much as outlined in the 3.5 DMG.

Attendance pretty much, if I run a game with xp everybody gets the same xp for each session attended.

I don't see xp as rewards, merely as an advancement mechanic, rewards are the fun of playing.

Quote from: Kyle AaronYou didn't answer the question of the thread, Warthur, "what do you award xp for?" You simply critiqued my XP awarding.

If you wanted a back-patting thread where nobody criticise other peoples' points, you should have said as much. (And I did answer your question towards the end of my post.)

QuoteIt's not hard to judge the "good" roleplaying because as I said, I defined it: "We could tell the traits of your character without seeing your character sheet." You shouldn't have to tell us your character is Law-Abiding, or Sadistic or whatever. It should show.

So good roleplaying = good acting? Sorry, I'm not running an acting class: I'm not going to make a subjective judgement call on my players' skills as thespians.

QuoteYes, generally quiet people get less XP. This is because their quietness does not contribute to the fun of the group, any more than a football player standing around in the corner of the football field contributes to the fun or success of their team. Roleplaying's a social creative hobby.

Even if they have quiet IC conversations with other players while the GM is handling things for other players (such as when the party contrives to split itself)? Even if they do contribute occasionally, normally when they have a really good point to make? Even if they're having an off-day and don't want their character to be especially forward for this session? Even if their main enjoyment in the game is socialising with the rest of us and filling that seat?

Quiet != non-contributing. Quiet for this particular session != quiet for every session. Quiet != utterly uncommunicative.

QuoteThen afterwards they can go and write their journal about their Dark Secret and get the journal bonus.

I don't ask players to write journals that they wouldn't be comfortable being read out in front of the group/stuck on the game website. Game journals are for reminding the group as a whole what happened in a particular session in my games, not for masturbatory fanfic exercises.

Sure, they could trust the other players to keep IC and OOC knowledge separate, but why should the other players be put into a situation where they have to in the first place?

QuoteThe "showing up on time ready to play" bonus isn't simply a reward simply for showing up, it's showing up on time ready to play. That means come on time, bring your dice and character sheet, pay attention, don't yank out your pile of comic books you just bought. It's also meant to establish a minimum - even if all you do is show up on time ready to play, you get that XP award.

And again, I'm not up for treating my friends like schoolchildren. I don't need to encourage them with B.F. Skinner-like positive reinforcement. Being a friend and hanging out together is positive reinforcement enough for all of us.

QuoteMy XP I give are also an in-game reward, and are for tangible in-game achievements. The player can't spend their XP at the shop, only on their character and things in the game world; therefore it's an "in-game reward."

Exactly, and I don't dole out XP for things which didn't happen in the gameworld.

Quote from: BalbinusAttendance pretty much, if I run a game with xp everybody gets the same xp for each session attended.

I don't see xp as rewards, merely as an advancement mechanic, rewards are the fun of playing.

I often do this as my "Give everyone the same amount on a periodic basis" award. The period happens to be by session.

-clash

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhat do you give XP for?

Whatever I'm supposed to. I don't give out extra, individual awards.

Seanchai

Quote from: WarthurSo good roleplaying = good acting? Sorry, I'm not running an acting class: I'm not going to make a subjective judgement call on my players' skills as thespians.

That's not what he said. He said that you should be able to tell a character's traits without looking at the sheet. That doesn't require picking up skulls and diving into soliloquies, it just requires that your words and actions be in character and in tune with your traits.

For example, we have two players that are both playing sadists, one of which is a theater major and the other a football player whose interests in acting involve "well hello pizza guy, me and my sorority were just about to get naked". Both of them are approached by little Oliver, a poor waif just looking for some bread.

Thespian (in character): You, boy, are the lowest of the low. Your mother, if she exists, was a slug. Blah, blah, blah.
Little boy: runs away crying

Jock (in character): stomps on boy's foot
Little boy: runs awy crying

Both of them have demonstrated their traits through roleplaying, and assuming that sort of behavior is consistent, should get the XP.

Forgot to mention that we give out food XP for anyone that brings sodas grub for everyone. When we switch campaigns, the one who ran last gets bonus XP for their new characters to make up for all the extra work that goes into GMing.

I award behavior that I want to see more of ... whether the award is XPs, or combat advantage, or Hero Point, or candy.

What I often want to see more of is people getting their characters into trouble, as well as thinking up brilliant ways to turn trouble into victory.  Someone who does both frequently and entertainingly gets rewards from me, because I like that kind of cycle.

I understand Warthur's point that he doesn't want to be a "developmental psychologist" to his friends ... but I think that at some point it's inevitable.  Rewarding X and not rewarding Y is going to have an impact on people, whether you do it intentionally or not.  I can understand the argument that there's a moral difference between influencing your friends accidentally and influencing them on purpose, but I've looked at this issue enough that I can't really get back to a blissful unawareness of how my actions are effecting others.  If I do it on purpose I know that I'm influencing them, and if I do it accidentally I immediately realize that I'm influencing them, and have to question why I chose to do it that way.  Perils of thinking way too hard, I suppose.

Quote from: TonyLBI understand Warthur's point that he doesn't want to be a "developmental psychologist" to his friends ... but I think that at some point it's inevitable.  Rewarding X and not rewarding Y is going to have an impact on people, whether you do it intentionally or not.

Agreed. I rest my case.

-clash