Quote from: JDCorley;459562Thanks, so in contrast to others, you would say that Dungeon World (using Apocalypse World's rules) would not be part of this tradition. Cool, that's what I understood too.

There is considerable overlap between the gamers that make up the OSR and gamers who are interested in old school gaming. And it is possible to market an old school feel RPG to many niches of the OSR.

Some, like the group that frequents the OD&D Discussion Forum and Fight On! are very open to all types of Old School Games. Other are not so much.

Goodman Games is a good example of a publisher that is being successful in marketing their RPGs to the OSR despite it not being based on an older edition.  The two main reason for this is that Joseph and Harley are out there playtesting with OSR gamers and carefully explaining what the DCC RPG is, an emulation of 70s pulp fantasy, and not trying to pass it off as a better D&D. We will see if this continues after the release of the beta.

In general it is not hard to market to the OSR, the big mistake is trying to sell your rules as a better D&D. Most OSR gamers really dislike like that and once you get tagged with that reputation it is hard to shake it off.

Plus there are a fair number of OSR gamers that have played one of the older editions continuously since their release. As far as rules goes they are not looking for new rulesets. Others have started more recently and just want to play with the original rulebooks.

Most of them will buy adventures, a few interesting supplements, and maybe a setting. Knowing what forums and blogs they frequent will help with marketing to the OSR.

If you not into publishing none of this matters. Just grab what you want and go game. Much of it is free so all you can lose is the time you invest. If you want the original rule books most editions can be found by a determined buyer for a decent price. The major exceptions are the original D&D books/supplements and the D&D RC. In the last two years their prices have rose considerably.

Quote from: Gene Weigel;459566No, the bannerhead people have done slick conversions but haven't really done the design legwork is what I was saying. Its just a few shifts and its "their baby". If thats the case, then screw that and make your own rules. Pushing rpg stats bereft of a system has been around for a long time so why bother to promote bad merchandise?

My opinion is that the market will sort it out by what fans of older edition are willing to buy. Also none of what we do have proven to have legs yet. In a couple of years we will see how it shakes out it may just be a passing mini-fad or prove to be an enduring niche in the hobby.

The bottom line is that because Wizards let the cat of the bag with the release of the d20 SRD under the OGL there is nothing anybody can do to stop a person from releasing their own version of the rules.

Quote from: Gene Weigel;459566If there is a true OSR then let it be free of this trademarked gimmickry and landgrabbing. Let it stand on its own legs.

Do you have any specifics in mind? What do people use for rules if they think, as you do, that retro-clone rulesets are trademarked gimmickry.

How do you address the issue of the game collectors pushing the price of used copies up? So far only OD&D books/supplements have been majorly effected but D&D RC is also starting to experience this issue.

What about those editions that were badly organized compared to today's standards?

As you said you were involved at the beginning how else could the development of retro-clone ruleset played out?

We get these jokers like JDCorley who think anything short of "re-imagining" the very foundation of the D&D game into Now For Something Completely Different must be "not doing anything original in fantasy".

What a load of bull crap! Nine times out of ten, Now For Something Completely Different is just an imitation of some recent fad. It's doing nothing original in fantasy, and nothing original in game design either.

The emphasis on new rules sets is in contrast with the emphasis on variations in play that I see among many "old school" gamers. New environments and situations, monsters and magic and wonders, are to my mind more useful than yet another procedure for rolling dice (which seems increasingly to be "different for the sake of difference", often to the detriment of playability).

D&D was original in a truly groundbreaking way. Moreover, a prominent characteristic was -- and is -- its openness to countless variations, to endless realms of possibility.

Other games, including many other FRP games, are staid and stereotyped by comparison. Indeed, I see the narrowing of horizons as a factor contributing to the continued proliferation of commercial releases of rules sets. The games have gotten so limited that it takes a zillion of them to fill all the tiny peculiar niches.

At the same time, D&D itself -- rather than the field of literary and cinematic fantasy that inspired it -- has become the primary reference not only for new "editions" but for other RPGs. There is the incestuous phenomenon of game-based novels (at one time in TSR's history the dog that really wagged the gaming tail) becoming the new standard of fantasy fiction. This goes not only beyond D&D (Warhammer being another big property) but even beyond works using game-related trademarks, I think.

One strain in the old school is to get back to the roots, to clear away the detritus of four decades of an increasingly self-referential pursuit.

Part of that lies in rediscovery of writers long neglected in the shadow of Tolkien, recapitulating for a new generation the enthusiasm current in the 1970s when D&D hit a scene so prepared. This time, Robert E. Howard is represented in less adulterated form than the old Ace paperbacks, and gaming publisher Paizo is involved via its Planet Stories line.

Another part lies in turning away from consuming the latest rehash of a Campaign Setting Product Line to practice again the art of "just making up fun stuff" for oneself.

Yet another part is renewed interest in what D&D Volume 3 called "a good dungeon" and has more recently been called the "mega-dungeon". Cutting loose the shackles of a modern conventional wisdom that puts a premium on stifling conformity both to official catalogs of game elements and to standards of "realism", some DMs are finding their creativity wonderfully unleashed.

Some may go the route essentially of copying Hyperborea or The Dying Earth or Tekumel. Others will seek to do something as fresh and exciting to them now as those realms of imagination were to their creators.

Quote from: Phillip;459603We get these jokers like JDCorley who think anything short of "re-imagining" the very foundation of the D&D game into Now For Something Completely Different must be "not doing anything original in fantasy".

Totally. That's a textbook example of an excluded-middle fallacy, btw.

Yeah, asking where in the middle you feel something falls, and what sort of stuff happens in the middle totally excludes the middle. It's like I pretend the things I'm asking about don't exist at all and the qualities I'm inquiring about aren't attached to anything!

Quote from: Phillip;459603We get these jokers like JDCorley who think anything short of "re-imagining" the very foundation of the D&D game into Now For Something Completely Different must be "not doing anything original in fantasy".

How do you know what I'm thinking? Do you know what other people are thinking when you pass them on the street? Are there voices that you hear, or...?  Do they tell you to do things or just give you information? Do animals also talk to you?

Because I didn't say anything like this. What I asked was about whether closeness to the original D&D material was valued (versus, say, new mechanics), because I thought it was.  

estar gave his opinion, which was that it was not just valued, but was the defining element.

Quote from: JDCorley;459616Yeah, asking where in the middle you feel something falls, and what sort of stuff happens in the middle totally excludes the middle.

You don't make it sound like you are searching for a middle ground, but rather like you're asking for an all or nothing answer.

Quote from: JDCorley;459616It's like I pretend the things I'm asking about don't exist at all and the qualities I'm inquiring about aren't attached to anything!

Yes.

Quote from: Benoist;459620The way you're asking doesn't make it sound like you searching for a middle, but rather for an all or nothing answer.

Others seemed to understand it okay? I guess everyone will have to decide for themselves if asking "hey, so uh, isn't sticking pretty close to early D&D important for OSR stuff, I thought it was important?" is excluding the middle.

People indeed can make up their own minds.

Quote from: JDCorley;459625Others seemed to understand it okay? I guess everyone will have to decide for themselves if asking "hey, so uh, isn't sticking pretty close to early D&D important for OSR stuff, I thought it was important?" is excluding the middle.

I think JDCorely already answered this question. I'm pretty sure he agrees with you.

I don't pretend to be able to read anyone's mind, so going on behavior I'm pretty comfortable calling a troll a troll at this point.

Quote from: Aos;459627I think JDCorely already answered this question. I'm pretty sure he agrees with you.

He holds many of the answers to the questions he seeks.

Quote from: Cole;459628I don't pretend to be able to read anyone's mind, so going on behavior I'm pretty comfortable calling a troll a troll at this point.

Wait, you guys haven't added him to your ignore lists yet?  I mean...he's kinda infamous for pulling this shit elsewhere, so there's no reason to think that he's here to have an actual discussion.

Just because I have an opinion, it's unseemly to ask others for theirs?

Interesting theory. Hm! I guess it would explain why so many discussions here seem to begin with people not reading what others wrote. It would be considered rude!

Quote from: misterguignol;459630Wait, you guys haven't added him to your ignore lists yet?  I mean...he's kinda infamous for pulling this shit elsewhere, so there's no reason to think that he's here to have an actual discussion.

Well, I don't run background checks on posters unfamiliar to me, and I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're only acting combative because it may take time to develop or renew immunity to the native trolls. But then I'm a real prince, ain't I?