I've played a lot of D&D over the years but very little 5th edition. I haven't really figured out why gold peice rewards remain so high when the two largest money sinks are not emphasized at all. There is no magic item Wal-Mart (good riddance) and domain management doesn't seem very prominent either.
So, past level two or three when everyone has all the mundane equipment they really need you could drastically reduce gold rewards with almost no impact on the game. It isn't worth XP either, so there isn't much incentive to go after it. If you have enough to stay at an inn and buy a few arrows, your good.
Other than creating scenarios like paying ransoms, hiring an army, bribing a baron, etc.,what is money spent on in your 5th edition games? Note:I actually like 5th edition and want to play it more. I'm just trying to gather new information in my old school focused brain.
By rule, not much gold is needed, though the options in the DMG for down-time activities includes some modest support for pricing domains, hirelings, etc. See the section starting at page 126. Xanathar's Guide expands on some of those options, starting conveniently on almost the same page, 125.
I say modest, because for an old-school GM, there is enough there to get started. For a new player, I have my doubts about the usefulness of those sections, since they seem to assume you already know how to handle that type of play. On the plus side, if you want to include a money sink to make the gold useful, there is no need to wait until "name" level to start funding a manor, school, etc.
In my campaigns, I've been emphasizing the cost of travel (upping it a little due to scarcity), making clerical NPC special healing likewise scarce, and leaving options for investments in "favors" that lead to information and sometimes particular magic items. Since it's the only way the players have to pursue magic other than what they find randomly, and the other information is sometimes useful, they've sunk a lot into such networks. It's a way of getting the players involved deep into society without pinning them down to one spot.
For the most part, aside from a few pricey options like top end armour, it's up to the GM and players. A lot of tables don't really care about the detailed tracking of GP, in the same way some don't care about encumbrance, spell components, XP, etc. and the game works fine for those games. Most players IME, at least in sandboxy games like I run, find plenty of things to spend their money on ie; buying property, helping people, hiring mercenary groups, etc. If the GM want to make gold meaningful in 5e (as opposed to leaving it entirely up to the players) then they need to limit it (which is ridiculously easy), present plenty of opportunities to spend it (including some that have some real effect in-game), or something else (training, or a million other possibilities).
I used magic item manufacturing as a soak. If I go back to 5e, I'll bring training costs back.
Clearly the socially conscious heroes of 5e donate large sums of money to ethical causes like reforesting Mordor and helping Orkish children to grow up in their traditional culture without interference from dark lords and elves.
Overall gold can be used on things like transportation fees paying off NPCs. And downtime housing. Theres also a whole section in the DMG on things like running businesses, owning land and even paying for levelling up. As well as costs to build buildings and the like.
Theres also the potential to commission NPCs to craft things for the PCs up to and including magic items. And there are rules for things like trying to purchase magic items that pop up for sale from NPCs. Xanithars guide adds some new twists to that.
But in the end it really depends on the campaign and the players. Some are going to be really self sufficient and have little use for gold and others are going to want tons of it to fuel their dreams of grand castles, huge armies, or that magical starship they dream of launching.
Would it break 5e to reintroduce separate XP tables, modeled on AD&D, and then XP-for-gold-and-magic-items?
Just a simple yes/no will do, I'm not trying to start an edition war.
Mine spend a ton of money on raise deads at 1000gp/go.
Some magic item creation & commission. Lots of healing potions.
My son's dragonborn Barb-18 just spent 10000gp on a mansion, and 5000gp on a special 'dragon tree' in the garden as a present for his wife. :)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1031139Would it break 5e to reintroduce separate XP tables, modeled on AD&D, and then XP-for-gold-and-magic-items?
Just a simple yes/no will do, I'm not trying to start an edition war.
My tabletop 5e game uses XP for GP, at 1:1 up to 10th level, 1:10 for 11 to 20 - but no one is above 5th yet after 16 sessions.
Giving half XP for monsters, the PCs seem to be levelling up slower, if anything.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1031139Would it break 5e to reintroduce separate XP tables, modeled on AD&D, and then XP-for-gold-and-magic-items?
Just a simple yes/no will do, I'm not trying to start an edition war.
No it won't break 5e. In many ways 5e is like one of the hybrid retro-clones that marry newer edition mechanics with a older edition chassis. Like Blood & Treasure or my own ability/skill system I use for the Majestic Wilderlands. As such it doesn't go belly up if you swap out something with another classic edition. And certainly not with a XP table change.
Uh, clearly hookers and ale.
Alright, so it's pretty much as I figured. Other than a few optional domain management options, there is very little to spend large sums of money on outside of roleplaying created situations. That's actually fine, because it means a I greatly reduce gold rewards without much of a problem. I love D&D, but one of my biggest issues running it has always been the economy. It's never made any sort of logical sense.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1031139Would it break 5e to reintroduce separate XP tables, modeled on AD&D, and then XP-for-gold-and-magic-items?
Just a simple yes/no will do, I'm not trying to start an edition war.
No, for both. The 5e chassis is surprisingly resilient. As long as you are not a Monty Haul GM, you should be fine. You can also do GP for XP, where gold spent is to spread one's great deeds, reputation. It surprisingly matches up well 1e loot rates to 5e anticipated leveling speed, especially if you allow a Stable of PCs where players can have more than one PC, and party PC levels can have a broader range.
As for the first three "speed bump levels" before one gets their Archetype, it's a matter of taste. Porting over AD&D tables direct could lead to new player frustration at slow progression rates. But as long as you include other XP sources beyond slain monsters you should be fine.
The point of AD&D's different advancement tables was that PC classes were different. They had different prerequisites and some you could argue were superior than others.
I can see slowing down the 5e advancement, but I'm not sure there's a point to using different tables since all the classes are set up to be the same progressionwise.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1031177No, for both. The 5e chassis is surprisingly resilient. As long as you are not a Monty Haul GM, you should be fine. You can also do GP for XP, where gold spent is to spread one's great deeds, reputation. It surprisingly matches up well 1e loot rates to 5e anticipated leveling speed, especially if you allow a Stable of PCs where players can have more than one PC, and party PC levels can have a broader range.
As for the first three "speed bump levels" before one gets their Archetype, it's a matter of taste. Porting over AD&D tables direct could lead to new player frustration at slow progression rates. But as long as you include other XP sources beyond slain monsters you should be fine.
Well, yeah: treasure. You get more XP from it in AD&D than killing monsters anyway.
"What is the monster's treasure to the hand that steals it? Monsters are weak. Monster loot is stronger!
I gave you this!"
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2356[/ATTACH]
They spend some on wine, some on women, some on gambling and they waste the rest.
Ale and whores.
what are you a noob?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1031139Would it break 5e to reintroduce separate XP tables, modeled on AD&D, and then XP-for-gold-and-magic-items?
Just a simple yes/no will do, I'm not trying to start an edition war.
Yes for the XP tables.
Explanation:
The XP tables originally varied because the system assumed that each character had a 'tier' of value. The Wizard started the slowest, because they were deemed the most powerful, thus had to be slower than the Thief or Fighter. 5th edition gets rid of that conceit.
No for the XP via Gold and Magic Items. It won't break it, but you'll render most of the non-magic casting classes as pointless, especially the Fighter, whose sole point of existence is combat.
But that's something that's always confused me about having a Fighter in a game that rewarded stealth, cunning and magic instead of strength of arms (plural because most humans have two.) What's the point of beating things up, when it gets you nothing, but bypassing everything to get at the loot, the real way to gain experience and levels, gets you everything?
Am I honestly missing something here? Sincere question. I believe I am.
Another vote for ale and blowjobs.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1031301What's the point of beating things up, when it gets you nothing, but bypassing everything to get at the loot, the real way to gain experience and levels, gets you everything?
Am I honestly missing something here? Sincere question. I believe I am.
I would say that the answer is this, and it is deeper and more well explained in AD&D than in OD&D, but there's a performance curve the DM should grade the characters on and adjust XP accordingly and in the description of considering good play it mentions fighters fighting, spell-casters spell-casting, thieves thieving, clerics serving their deity and so on and conversely
bad play is fighters skulking in back and not contributing - you get the idea.
I think it is not so much "Why does it reward fighting when bypassing is the way to go" is that sometimes there
is no "bypass" and
during those times the fighter best be up front and bringing it. When you're all sneaking around the huge, ancient red dragon's lair and someone does an uh-oh and wakes it up, and you have
got to throw down, no ifs nor ands nor buts, that's where we truly consider what the fighter does. Is he cowering on the floor under his shield yelling NOT IN THE FACE, NOT IN THE FACE! or is he up there getting ready to show off his Dirk the Daring impression?
Quote from: Certified;1031171Uh, clearly hookers and ale.
I was going to suggest wine, women and song . . . But really the music is optional.
gp is a resource for creative players to manipulate the game world in increasingly profound ways. Dull players can't think beyond how to get another +1 to AC, and that's too bad for them.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1031301Am I honestly missing something here? Sincere question. I believe I am.
You're missing that PCs manage to actually pull it off about one time in 100.
And the first time you get surprised by a giant lizard or something, you'll be really glad you have those fighters along.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1031301But that's something that's always confused me about having a Fighter in a game that rewarded stealth, cunning and magic instead of strength of arms (plural because most humans have two.) What's the point of beating things up, when it gets you nothing, but bypassing everything to get at the loot, the real way to gain experience and levels, gets you everything?
Am I honestly missing something here? Sincere question. I believe I am.
"Why does a thief carry a weapon when he's breaking into a house in the middle of the night when not waking anybody up gets him the most rewards?"
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1031139Would it break 5e to reintroduce separate XP tables, modeled on AD&D, and then XP-for-gold-and-magic-items?
Just a simple yes/no will do, I'm not trying to start an edition war.
Probably wouldnt. Probably. But only if you used the A or 2e EXP numbers. Otherwise No. Adding gold for exp into 5e without adjusting everything else will end up with the PCs advancing even faster.
A simple fix without resorting to the older numbers is to just multiply all the 5e EXP level requirements by 10. This is because 5es EXP curve is a sort of average of A & 2es divided by 10.
Id suggest doing some test runs first to see how it goes.
Quote from: Omega;1031362Id suggest doing some test runs first to see how it goes.
I run old school (mostly BX) adventures in 5e, with XP for gold at 1:1 and the standard 5e XP table. I started off giving 1/5 standard monster XP but found that was not enough. I went over to 1/2 standard monster XP and that seems to work well. PCs still advance quickly to 3rd level, as 5e intends; after that it's typically about 4 sessions to 4th and 5 or 6 to 5th.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1031332"Why does a thief carry a weapon when he's breaking into a house in the middle of the night when not waking anybody up gets him the most rewards?"
That's also a question I ask. Because if you're caught and you have a weapon? You're killed on sight, usually, because they assume you're intent is murder. If you don't, and are caught, they carry you off to prison, because all you planned is theft.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1031369That's also a question I ask. Because if you're caught and you have a weapon? You're killed on sight, usually, because they assume you're intent is murder. If you don't, and are caught, they carry you off to prison, because all you planned is theft.
There's clearly no advantage to killing the groggy guy in the bathrobe with the baseball bat, which is why it never happens. Nope. Burglars
never use weapons to defend themselves from armed homeowners, or to kill witnesses and escape prison.
The concept of "bringing some muscle in case things go south" is easy for common criminals to understand, and they tend not to be the brightest bunch. Since you have admitted to being completely incapable of comprehending why this idea exists at all, it's pretty clear you'll need to learn by experience, not by thinking. I suggest trying to play through Keep on the Borderlands where nobody in your party has weapons, armor, or offensive magic. See how it goes.
Quote from: Omega;1031362Probably wouldnt. Probably. But only if you used the A or 2e EXP numbers. Otherwise No. Adding gold for exp into 5e without adjusting everything else will end up with the PCs advancing even faster.
A simple fix without resorting to the older numbers is to just multiply all the 5e EXP level requirements by 10. This is because 5es EXP curve is a sort of average of A & 2es divided by 10.
Id suggest doing some test runs first to see how it goes.
Were I doing this, I'd take the opportunity to switch to a campaign run using the silver standard instead of gold. Use the XP tables as is. Award XP for
gold. Provide treasure opportunities using the same numbers in the rules, but downgrade all gold values to silver, silver to copper, etc. (Maybe copper to "iron bits" or something.)
Sure, it's more work to always effectively divide the treasure value by 10, than doing it once for the XP table, but I've always wanted to run a D&D game on the silver standard. Might as well make it work for me while doing that.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1031369That's also a question I ask. Because if you're caught and you have a weapon? You're killed on sight, usually, because they assume you're intent is murder. If you don't, and are caught, they carry you off to prison, because all you planned is theft.
Depends on the time and place. In England in the Middle Ages there was a special name for breaking into somebody's house to rob. Don't remember it off the top of my head. Weapon or no, you'll be hanged.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031428Depends on the time and place. In England in the Middle Ages there was a special name for breaking into somebody's house to rob. Don't remember it off the top of my head. Weapon or no, you'll be hanged.
Yes, you would be, but here's the thing. Caught with a knife, they'd kill you on the spot. Without a weapon, they'd wait till morning at the very least, which means a chance to escape.
I use the downtime activities for 5e released in Xanathar's and Unearthed Arcana, and made some of my own.
To encourage using it I also made Long Rests take a week, so that way they overlap.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1031490I use the downtime activities for 5e released in Xanathar's and Unearthed Arcana, and made some of my own.
To encourage using it I also made Long Rests take a week, so that way they overlap.
There was an Unearthed Arcana article on this? I missed that.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1031493There was an Unearthed Arcana article on this? I missed that.
https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA_Downtime.pdf
Quote from: Opaopajr;1031177No, for both. The 5e chassis is surprisingly resilient.
You're welcome.